Sheldon [00:00:00]:
Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is John b King Junior. So without further ado, John, thank you so much for joining us today.

John B. King [00:00:19]:
Thanks for the opportunity to join me.

Sheldon [00:00:20]:
Pleasure is mine. I'm excited about today's conversation. We're gonna be kinda talking about the state of education, especially in The United States as well. But before we get into that, John, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

John B. King [00:00:33]:
Sure. So currently, I'm the chancellor of the State University of New York. We've got 64 institutions across the state serving about 1,300,000 students a year. Prior to that, I was running the Education Trust, a national civil rights organization focused on education. And prior to that, I was United States Secretary Of Education for president Obama. But really spent my whole career in education, started out as a teacher, a principal, running a network of schools, as commissioner of education for New York State. So all different roles within education, all focused on equity.

Sheldon [00:01:09]:
I love this. And you're also an author. Tell us a little bit about your book.

John B. King [00:01:13]:
Yes. My book comes out on April 29, Teacher by Teacher, the People Who Change Our Lives. The book is really a memoir and a love letter to teachers. I mean, I describe the teachers who saved my life as a kid when I was growing up. Both my parents passed away when I was little, my mom when I was eight, my dad when I was 12. In the period when it was just my dad and me, my dad was struggling with Alzheimer's. Home was incredibly difficult, unstable, scary a lot of the time, and the thing that saved me was school. And even after my dad passed and I moved around different family members, different schools, it was always teachers who gave me a sense of hope and purpose.

John B. King [00:01:56]:
So I really try to share the difference teachers made for me. I tell their stories, and then I try to talk about some of the amazing teachers I've been privileged to work with throughout my career.

Sheldon [00:02:06]:
Oh, man. That's thank you for sharing, by the way. And, folks, there's a link in the show notes. Make sure you grab a copy of the book. I'm interested in learning about your story as well and just kinda seeing how, you know, sometimes we we we have things happen in our lives, and we we utilize those as reasons why we're not where we would like to be. But it sounds like you utilize those moments, you know, even though they were tough moments, but, I mean, you have been I mean, you say you're the chancellor. I mean, you have a lot going on, and and I'm just glad to hear that. So, again, thank

John B. King [00:02:36]:
you for sharing. Thank you.

Sheldon [00:02:37]:
So let's let's get into it because, you you have experience working in presidential experience with president Barack Obama. And currently in the state of The United States, we have a lot of changes that are happening in regards to education, the Department of Education. I think when we first kinda got in touch with your publicist couple months ago, we were in on the verge of our education department being, I guess, taken away, I guess, lack of better words. So I I kinda wanna get your take on this just because you've worked in in previous administration. What is getting rid of the Department of Education? What does that mean when it comes to equity in education?

John B. King [00:03:15]:
Yeah. I mean, it's it's outrageous and heartbreaking, what the administration is trying to do. They can't dismantle the department without congress. And so I I'm still hopeful that in the end, congress, members on both sides of the aisle will be so committed to the idea that education is a national imperative that they will reject this approach from the administration. But they've already purged a lot of people from the department, career dedicated civil servants. Now there are half as many people working at the department today as there were on January 20. Part of the reason that is so heartbreaking beyond the terrible cruelty to the people who work there is that it really is a threat to education equity and educational outcomes for the country. Department essentially does four things.

John B. King [00:04:03]:
One, sends money to school districts to help students who are the most vulnerable. The title one program that sends funding to schools serving low income students, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act funding that goes to provide services for students with disabilities, title three that provides funding for English learners. All of that could be under threat. The second major thing the department does, the department manages the federal student loan portfolio and delivers the Pell Grant program, which makes it possible for low and middle income students to access higher education. That too is under threat, not only because they may cut the funding, but also because the mechanics of that effort are so important. You know, if the free application for federal student aid, the FAFSA, goes down, it's impossible for people to access not only federal but often state financial aid as well. So I'm very worried about that. Third thing the department does is civil rights enforcement.

John B. King [00:05:02]:
The Office for Civil Rights is the place you go if you've experienced discrimination on the basis of race, sex, religion. And last year, there were over 20,000 complaints in the office for civil rights, many of them from parents of children with disabilities who weren't getting the services they're entitled to. They've laid off a lot of the people who work at OCR. And so it's an open question. What will happen? How will people's rights be protected? And then the fourth thing, and this is less talked about, but really important, the National Assessment for of Educational Progress. That department provides data on how we're doing so that we can find places that are doing well and lift them up, but also so that we can identify places where we're falling short. Without that data and research infrastructure, we'll be flying blind. In all four of these areas, there are fewer people doing the work now than there were before, and I'm very worried that that we will see continued efforts to undermine these vital roles of the education department.

Sheldon [00:06:02]:
I'm not trying to scare folks, but you got me a little shook right there because, you know, I I'll be honest. I I'm one of those people, like, I I keep up with a lot of headlines, and I'll read a lot of captions. I try like, I currently don't have cable or anything. So, like, I don't just always watch the news. I'll see stuff from social media. And so I was kinda unclear as far as what what does all of this mean, and I think you did a great job with explaining what would happen. Now I did like that you started the conversation saying, you know, I'm hopeful because at the end of the day, Congress has to approve this. You know, there's the checks and balances and everything like that.

Sheldon [00:06:40]:
So that makes sense. What are you hearing as far as maybe on the congress side of things? Do you feel like, how, I guess, how confident do you feel in this not happening at all?

John B. King [00:06:50]:
You know, I think it is very likely that there will still be an education department at the end of the day That that congress is going to reject the effort to eliminate the department. But budget cuts, the undermining of these programs, I'm very worried. Look. I you know, members of congress on both sides of the aisle will say to you in the office, the privacy of their office, you know, of course, I'm for the Pell Grant program. Of course, I support title one. Of course, we need to enforce the rights of students with disabilities through the Office for Civil Rights. But will they vote that way in public? Right? Will will they have the courage to stand up to the administration? That is less clear, and that's part of the work we all have to do. Right? We have to keep reminding members of congress, again, Democrats and Republicans, why is title one so important? Why is it so important that the federal government have a role protecting students' civil rights? So you can't just say, well, we're gonna leave it up to the states and districts to do right by students.

John B. King [00:07:52]:
The history shows us. States and districts don't always do that, and you need the federal government to be a protector of civil rights.

Sheldon [00:07:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and and I'm glad you brought up that point. Right? Because people are like, oh, we'll just leave it up to the states. But, like, that's the reason why the Department of Education is here because they weren't doing those type of things. Do you see this as maybe we're going backwards in in that case then?

John B. King [00:08:16]:
I do worry about that. Look. You know, I always point folks to the the famous Norman Rockwell painting of Ruby Bridges. Right? Ruby Bridges

Sheldon [00:08:24]:
Yeah.

John B. King [00:08:24]:
Integrating a school in New Orleans. And, of course, when you imagine that picture in your mind's eye, you see Ruby Bridges at the center. But around her are US Marshals. Why US Marshals? Because New Orleans and Louisiana did not want to protect her constitutional right. They did not want to allow her into that school. And so you needed the federal government. And so I do wear that this is part of a broader effort to undo the achievements of the civil rights era. And you see it not just in education, but you see this across federal agencies.

John B. King [00:09:02]:
This effort to take away the federal civil rights role, which I think is very dangerous. And and it's not just dangerous for people of color. It's ultimately dangerous for everybody because civil rights are for everybody. That's about ensuring that we deliver on the promise of the American constitution.

Sheldon [00:09:21]:
So help me understand. Why are they trying to dismantle the Department of Education for is there a financial gain? I mean, what what is the benefit?

John B. King [00:09:30]:
I think it's part philosophical and part tactical. The philosophical part, I think, is a real skepticism about the federal government, about government, about public institutions, and that has certainly intensified on the right. You know? And and it's it's a departure truly from the history of the Republican party. If you think about George w Bush, he made education a top priority for his administration. You might disagree with some of the policies, but for him, he thought the federal government needs to lead on improving educational outcomes. So this is a departure from the history of the Republican Party, but now you have this orientation towards government is by definition, bad. I think that's the philosophical piece. The tactical piece is that, I think there is an effort, many red states, to shift to vouchers, to take money out of the public schools, and send it to private schools.

John B. King [00:10:30]:
And I'm not talking about little money, where billions of dollars are now being transferred from public education to private schools in ways that I think are equity undermining, but it is a philosophical view. And, you know, Betsy DeVos, who was, secretary of education during Trump's first term, and she's given a tremendous amount of money to advocacy organizations trying to get more voucher programs. And I I think that is that's part of the agenda here.

Sheldon [00:11:04]:
Okay. Okay. So there's there's an agenda. I mean, there's always using an agenda for things, but that that makes a lot of sense. And, again, I appreciate you for breaking a lot of this down because, again, you're educating me as well. One of the other things that we see in regards to not just the, I guess, the state of education and maybe on a more broader scale is just diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts. So and we see a lot of companies, for example, Target and other companies that say, you know, we're gonna reduce our efforts to do dive DEI type of efforts.

John B. King [00:11:36]:
And I

Sheldon [00:11:36]:
try not to say DEI these days now because of it's just it's just there's a lot there. So I do try to say diversity, equity, and inclusion. Do you feel like some of all of this is all related?

John B. King [00:11:48]:
I'm worried this is part of a broader effort to take us backwards on the progress of the civil rights era. And it's counter this anti DEI campaign is counter to American values. You know, the country was built on diversity. Equity and inclusion are the goal of our civil rights laws. When you look at the fourteenth amendment, it promises equal protection under the law. That's about equity and inclusion. So this is really a departure, I think, from our constitution and our laws. It's a very dangerous effort to misrepresent our history.

John B. King [00:12:25]:
When you see schools taking down Harriet Tubman posters, you see them taking books about slavery or the civil rights movement out of the library. That is very dangerous to the health of our democracy if students don't have an appreciation for the fact that our history is both about progress and struggle and shortcomings. Right? We have to be honest about that. And I'm worried that this is an effort to ensure that the next generation of students are unaware of those things. I also think this banner of anti BI is being used to try to undo programs and initiatives that have actually helped us make progress towards equity. And, again, to me, that's counter to the interest of the country. If you are interested in the economic success of The United States and the national security of The United States, we need everybody on the field. We can't afford to have people left on the sidelines and dismantling important efforts to expand the circle of opportunity risk trapping people on the sidelines.

Sheldon [00:13:34]:
Alright, man. Listen. We could I know you and I could spend all day talking about what's happening, and let's let's shift gears because what can we do? Right? So my audience, educators, professors, teachers, students, you know, we're all in education field. Maybe even there are some parents and community members that are listening to this as well. And so now we're ramped up ramped up. What should we do as we're seeing these things taking place? I know there's only so much that we can do in some sense, but then what are your suggestions as far as strategies going forward?

John B. King [00:14:07]:
You know, in terms of the broader political context, I think we all have to speak up for public schools. We have to tell the story of the role that public education plays in the success of our our employers, in the success of our communities. We have to tell the story of how higher education is making it possible for people to have social mobility. But I would go beyond the the sort of the macro political stuff we could do to say that each of us has to figure out what can we do in our own lives to keep advancing the values we believe in, like equity. What am I doing in my school? Am I participating in my local school board elections? Am I mentoring a young person who might need support? And how am I living my values?

Sheldon [00:14:57]:
Got you. Okay. So there's things again, like you said, there's there's outreach stuff. But then how are my displaying you know, I I'm one of those people that says what we do can spread. Right? So, like, if another teacher, if another person sees my actions and see, oh, okay. This person seems to be an advocate or support of certain groups of people. This person speaks up and this person and that kinda can spread. I talk to a lot of teachers that say, I'm the only person in my school.

Sheldon [00:15:24]:
I'm the only person that feels this way, and and I feel like a lone wolf. And and I always try to tell them, look. I bet you there's other folks if you're not having these kind of conversations, there's other folks that might feel this way, or you can always tap into online resources and groups and things like that. Are there any particular resources that you can think of maybe online or even just, again, look for local such and such groups or clubs that you could recommend?

John B. King [00:15:50]:
Sure. A couple I I'd say, you know, go on the website for the Education Trust, edtrust dot org. They do tremendous amount of work on civil rights and equity issues all across the country. Sign up for their newsletter. I'd say there's a national organization called Education Leaders of Color, Edlock, that tries to bring together folks who are principals, superintendents, leading nonprofits in the education space. They do conferences. That is a very strong and, I think, important community. There's, former school principal in Philadelphia, Sharif Elmecke, who Oh, yeah.

John B. King [00:16:27]:
Recognizes you know Sharif. Right? Yeah. An incredible black male educator thing each year. So inspiring. So trying to find those people who are doing the the work to advance equity is really important. But I would also say, you know, create your own thing. You know? There if you know five teachers who are passionate about these issues, you know, start a book club. Get you know, figure out what you wanna read together, have conversations, figure out projects that you can take on.

John B. King [00:16:56]:
We need to to have a grassroots movement to keep pushing equity forward. The federal government isn't helping us right now, but we we have to keep the the momentum.

Sheldon [00:17:06]:
Yeah. Keep the momentum. I love that. And here's here's the thing. Let's just say if we're gonna look five years from now and, like, everything that we kinda just talked about as far as, like, us putting, you know, community into action and doing some things and things were to change around. What are some of your hopes when it comes to education for the future?

John B. King [00:17:26]:
You know, two things I hope we can work on. One is we have a huge crisis of chronic absenteeism in the country. So many students missing so much school. We still have students who are not making it through high school, and we know there's really very little you can do in this economy without a high school diploma. And I think part of the answer is we have to reorient schools to say, we're gonna figure out for every kid what are they passionate about, what are they excited about, what do they care about so that we can tap into that and help see school as a place they wanna be and make it through school and figure out what their aspirations are beyond k 12. So that that's that's a a movement, and that's, you know, something I've been thinking about since I was a high school teacher. Right? How do we make sure that kids understand the connection between why am I in school and what do I wanna do in my life? And we have to tighten that connection. The other thing I would say is we need more folks to get to and through college.

John B. King [00:18:26]:
Now that doesn't necessarily mean that everybody needs a four year bachelor's degree. For some people, it might be a two year associate's degree. For some people, it might even be a one year or short term career credential in an area that will get them to a good job. But, you know, president Obama pointed this out once and went into his State of the Union addresses. We really need everybody to have some kind of post secondary education. And I really worry when you look at the numbers, we are seeing fewer men, particularly fewer men of color, going to and through higher education. And we've really gotta work on that. And my hope is again, the federal government is gonna help us here, but can we create a grassroots movement to get more students to these incredible opportunities, to expose them to what's possible through post secondary education?

Sheldon [00:19:15]:
There's definitely work to do, and I love the positivity that you have. And I I would agree, you know, just not only finish completing school, but also looking at gainful employment, finding opportunities for a higher education. Again, sometimes we push so much, oh, you gotta get a four year degree, and then people get afraid because, you know, kinda tapping into the financial aid and Pell grant, you know, the the loans that that might be associated with it. But sometimes it's just, a community college one year type of thing or certification. Those kind of things are are very important.

John B. King [00:19:47]:
Absolutely. And look, there are there's a lot of good jobs out there today that are not filled because they can't find someone with the right qualification. You know? So in New York, for example, you know, we're looking at a huge nursing shortage. So we're trying to get more students into our community college nursing programs. You know, two year degree that can mean taking your earnings up by tens of thousands of dollars. There are a lot of good jobs in nursing. We're seeing in New York advanced manufacturing renaissance. We've got several semiconductor companies that are building and growing in New York.

John B. King [00:20:19]:
And you can get a fantastic job at one of those companies with a one year career certificate. So we're working with those companies to try to build programs that will create that pipeline for folks.

Sheldon [00:20:30]:
Love it. Alright. Well, John, I'll tell you this. I'm looking forward to reading the book. I'm a grab myself a copy once we finish this interview because, I mean, just hearing your story and just kinda giving a layout what the store what the book is about sounds very intriguing. And, folks, there's a link in the show notes. Make sure you grab yourself a copy. But, John, I'd love for you to share any final words of advice you wanna provide to our listeners out there.

John B. King [00:20:50]:
Yeah. I would just say, you know, it can feel very dark in this moment, some of the attacks on diversity, equity, inclusion, the attacks on civil rights. But we have to remember that we have been through worse. You know, the most inspiring event I've been to in the last month or so was actually a funeral. It's a funeral for Hazel Dukes who was the leader of New York State's NAACP for years. She passed away at 92. Was to be a black woman born in Montgomery, Alabama 90 2 Years ago. And the the perseverance and resolve and intestinal fortitude she had to have to go from that beginning to becoming one of the most powerful civil rights leaders in New York and in the country.

John B. King [00:21:33]:
Secretary Clinton spoke at the funeral. Governor Hochul spoke at the funeral. Mayor Adams spoke at the funeral. And there were thousands of people there, and they were there because she every day fought to try she did it through her personal interactions with the number of people she mentored. And I feel like if she could do that against those odds, we can persevere through this moment.

Sheldon [00:21:53]:
And the preacher's man now. Okay. I know it's Sunday, man, but you you bringing the heat today, so I appreciate you on that. If if we have some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

John B. King [00:22:02]:
Johnbking@Johnbkingonx. John b king junior dot com is our website. That's also where I list out all the places we're going on the book tour.

Sheldon [00:22:14]:
K. Sounds good. Well, John, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

John B. King [00:22:18]:
Thank you so much. Take care.

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