Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Liliana Stevenson. So without further ado, Lily, thank you so much for joining us today.

Lil Stephenson [00:00:16]:
Thanks for having me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:17]:
Pleasure is mine. I'm excited for today's topic. It's gonna be an interesting one, folks, so make sure that you're tuned in and you're ready to take your notes. Unless you're driving or lifting weights, be careful out there. I'm excited for today's topic. Lily, I'd love for you to start off by sharing a little bit about yourself and what you're currently

Liliana Stevenson [00:00:33]:
So I am a professional long term sub. So I pop in and I take leaves. In Illinois, it is a profession. Like, you pop in and you are paid, certified wage to cover anything from three weeks up. In Ohio, I found out it is not the same. You are paid as a traditional sub, so we're we're grappling with that. But I'm also a curriculum creator and the founder of Bat for America, which is a nonprofit organization that focuses on personal voice and personal boundaries, teaching a the sport of cricket in a unique way that kinetically teaches those skills as you're learning the sport at the same time.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:09]:
Nice. Alright. Well, welcome to the show. I'm you might be the first long term sub that I've had on the show. So congrats. Exciting. I can

Liliana Stevenson [00:01:17]:
talk about that for days. And if you wanna have me on for that, I'd love to talk

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:22]:
to you about it. Alright. We'll have to bring you back for another one then. Let's get into it because we're talking about English learners, ELL, EL students, and I don't have that background. I've worked with teachers, obviously, as as a school principal, but it's not necessarily my area of expertise. I speak one language and that is English, and I struggle to speak English sometimes. So I wanna start with asking you, what are some of the challenges that you're seeing when it comes to EL teachers?

Liliana Stevenson [00:01:47]:
The first thing is the lack of EL teachers. So for example, in the current role that I'm in, there is one EL teacher for two campuses. And so she spends two days at one campus and two days on the other campus. And there is a rubric that says if child a struggles with a, b, c, d, and e, you can see them for so many hours. If child b has this issue, you can use so many hours. But also what happens is what if how do how does that work into a schedule when you have to be in one building one day and one building another day? And what if someone needs really a lot more than that? For example, in one leave that I had, I was working with a fourth grader who was learning poetic language, like alliteration, and she had a second grade reading level. And I had just made arrangements to be able to work with her after school while she sat in the bus line, and then the leave ended. So even though the rubric said she's allowed this many hours, it's like, mate, that is not I'm sorry.

Liliana Stevenson [00:02:48]:
Like, that is not enough time, and this kid is just gonna be set up for gosh. She's struggling. I wonder why.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:54]:
You got me thinking because you said, for example, in your situation, you got a teacher that has to split their time between two different campuses. So what happens every other day for those students that don't have that resource available? Are they just left to be on their own? And and then does that teacher, when they come back the next day, are they trying to play catch up because the the work that was missed the day before, so now they gotta do that work and the day like, how does that situation work out? I'm curious.

Liliana Stevenson [00:03:22]:
So it it just depends. Each school district does it differently. The one that I'm currently in is that there is, like, a, like, support study hall. So when the professional is not there on campus, then those of us who can just kind of support and say, oh, hey. Are you missing this? Are you having struggles with that? There are, like, math tutors available if math is an issue and the skill is a problem. But, unfortunately, as far as the scaffolding, like, it's almost like at one school that I was at and this is the bonus of being a long term sub. I've worked in many districts. I've worked in many schools, and so I have seen a lot of different ways of how this is handled.

Liliana Stevenson [00:03:57]:
But in one school, they were saying, well, all the classroom teachers need to scaffold. Like, we can't do that. And I'm like, okay. So let's say we have, again, high class load. Let's say we have a medium class load of 25, and you have various language abilities abilities in general, and now you're asking, well, say me if I were the classroom teacher, to now make a specific lesson plan for an English learner who may not understand have that vocabulary gap, it's it's the time. I mean, the the system of we're trying to do the best we can with what we have, but it's really hard when we aren't given the resources to do the best that we can because we know how to do these things. There are some kids who end up in classes beneath their ability because classroom teachers may interpret the inability to do the work as a disability, as opposed to a language difference. And there is a girl that happened in one of my leaves.

Liliana Stevenson [00:04:56]:
I was livid. They, I mean, they took her out and put her in isolation with one other kid who had some other disabilities. So she wasn't talking to her peers. She wasn't able to interact, which is what you need when you are learning a language. And but it was one of her teachers that's like, well, she's failing. I'm like, really? I was like, so biology. Let's talk about the vocabulary level there. Do we know what her reading level is? Do we know what experience she's had? Do we know if she's a heritage speaker, if she was traditionally trained? I mean, there's so many questions that we need to ask.

Liliana Stevenson [00:05:28]:
Was your speech pathologist there during the evaluation? Do you come from, and this is a culture thing, from a monolingual, monocultural background that if you don't understand that how difficult it is to learn another language, you just may not have that lens to be able to see that performance.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. And then that that makes a lot of sense. And and sadly, that's a challenge that you see is a lot of students where English is not their first language are lumped into IEP five zero four situations, and they're all kind of put in that same group when, again, it's not necessarily an issue where there is intellectual challenges. It's just more of there's a language barrier. I'm curious about I know we tend to lean on Spanish as the primary language for a lot of our students, but there's so many different languages out there. I kinda wanna see if you had some thoughts on that. Those who do not speak Spanish as their home language, what are your thoughts?

Liliana Stevenson [00:06:23]:
I think the thing we need to be aware of is that cultural lens because speaking English is is a great way to encourage these kids to speak English. However, they have to be properly just that goal to be just a little more difficult so they feel like they can achieve, it's really disheartening. And so I think with the EL teacher going into that and then being able to work with classroom teachers to also scaffold, which is, again, it's the time having asking classroom teachers to scaffold. There's a little bit of frustration because they're all their load is already so heavy. It's like, oh, could we add this one more thing? But I have to tell you, with that whole getting thrown in with the IEPs, I took a leave once and I sat in this classroom. It was a co taught class, and I was like, man, I love this class. I am feeling so comfortable in this class. And I realized I looked around, 75% of the class was male Latino heritage speakers.

Liliana Stevenson [00:07:22]:
And this was this basically was a step above remedial, this class was. And at the time I was getting my EL certification, I went to my teacher and I said, what? I I mean, I'm comfortable in this class because everybody looks like me. But at the same time, I'm like, what's going on here? And she said, well, the standard is seven to 10%. Across the board, seven to 10% of any of your populations may fall into considered a special education, that traditional Mhmm. Setting. It's like when you start getting above that, we need to start looking at what are the similarities, what's going on with this particular group of people, and why are there so many? And I said, because we have a bunch of heritage speakers who are not traditionally taught Spanish in there. They just listen to it, which means listening to English. The sounds are different.

Liliana Stevenson [00:08:09]:
The spelling's different. And I was like, oh my gideon. Wow.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:13]:
So you you got it. So, again, I'm not an EL certified individual, so you're gonna have to explain to us why you do not have to speak the language in order to become a to be a part of the EL program. Because I assumed if I have Spanish speaking students, oh, yeah. You wanna get a Spanish speaking EL teacher in that in that space. So give us reason why not necessarily you have to have that same language.

Liliana Stevenson [00:08:41]:
Well, thing is you can. I mean, it's it's very nice. In the situation that I am in right now, I am the only Spanish speaking adult on faculty, and this is a large school. And when when a teacher comes in and looks at the understanding of the student, you'll know right away as far as, okay, these are the types of things when we communicate. These are the levels we need to communicate at. For example, my my one student that I had at my last leave who was in the fourth grade, she read at a second grade level, but her speaking was higher. We were able to speak a lot more. Whereas the one kid who had just come from Brazil, we were doing a lot of pictures and a lot of, you know, drawings, hand raised.

Liliana Stevenson [00:09:24]:
Can I go to the toilet? So starting, it's just you meet them where they are, and then you set the bar just a little higher so success can be achieved. And, unfortunately, the classroom teachers don't have that. And if they do, anybody out there, I am excited for you. That's great. So most everybody just has the heavy class loads with all the IEPs and all the everything. And, oh, by the way, you need to make sure you're drawing pictures for Johnny over there. And the teacher's like, how how am I gonna do that?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:52]:
That kinda leads me to my next question, Lily, because like you said, there is a shortage out there. And so a lot of us teachers who want the best for our kids I I mean, I've I've had these conversations with teachers who are stressed out. It's like, I wanna help this child. This child has been passed on every year. They're in seventh grade. They're in eighth grade. They get pushed on. They just get pushed on, and now I I wanna be able to challenge them and high expectations, rigor, all that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:18]:
I wanna do that, but the language is a challenge for me. What are some strategies that you can provide to teachers, educators out there where there isn't that support, those resources? What are some things that we can do in a classroom?

Liliana Stevenson [00:10:32]:
The first thing, get to know your kid. What do they like? Start working on those

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:37]:
How do how do we do that?

Liliana Stevenson [00:10:39]:
Well, you just kinda you start off if it's it well, it's gonna depend on your level. Is it someone like my kid from Brazil and it's like pictures. I drew a picture of someone running and he smiled and I'm like, oh, do you like to run? He's like, yes. I'm like, okay. He likes to run. Let me incorporate running. I mean, it's just it's two or three questions of I know anime is huge. Picture.

Liliana Stevenson [00:10:58]:
Do you like anime? Do you like sport? Because as soon as you can get that connection, you can build on the vocabulary that they like, and then that encourages now granted, that's one section of vocabulary. But they can see that you're invested in who they are and not, oh, you are person a and you are reading at level whatever. I need to get you to whomever. So for example, in my Brazil kid example, first grade, we were struggling with taking other people's things.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:28]:
Okay.

Liliana Stevenson [00:11:28]:
And the class the classroom teacher said, hey. When you take him, can you incorporate your lesson with that? So his friend so he's from Brazil. His table mate was from China. I took them both out. What did we practice? Can I borrow your pencil, please? Pencil. Grab the pencil. K. They were friends.

Liliana Stevenson [00:11:49]:
They did this together. We practice something very simple. Language skills, also. Culture, also. Oh, I'm interacting with a friend. And they said afterwards, the teacher came back and said, he asked, can I borrow your pencil? I was like, it's the little wins on the little things. Sometimes we get so caught up in, and I don't wanna knock state standards, but it's like, what box am I ticking? As opposed to what do you need? And as soon as we find out what they need and then we look at the boxes to tick and say, oh, I can fulfill this need and this box can be ticked. That's where the workaround needs to be instead of the other way around.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:25]:
You brought up a good point. I've been doing some research on Hofstede. He has his cultural dimensions, and one of the things he talks about in his in his research was individualism versus collectivism. What I just heard is you had a student that probably comes from a collectivist background, meaning, like, they're used to, like, we all your pencil is my pencil. You know, that that's just kind of the background. So it wasn't like the student is trying to be rude or bully or all those. It's just that is that's the community that they're they're coming from. And so now you're teaching them, okay.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:00]:
Yes. They can you you can take the pencil, but these are some strategies of how to do so. Sadly sadly, a lot of times, those students don't get those opportunities. They get sent out of the classroom. They get sent to the office whenever it is, and they don't get that support that they actually need because it's just a cultural barrier that's there.

Liliana Stevenson [00:13:19]:
When you look at the monolingual, monocultural population, when they are in admin roles, when they are in teacher roles, and I'm not offended. I don't mean anybody to take offense if you're like, well, I only speak English. I'm a fine teacher. That's great. I totally believe you are. It's just the idea of because there is that lack of experience, not understanding what it's like. And especially, I mean, I've traveled the world with the cricket. I've experienced a lot of things.

Liliana Stevenson [00:13:44]:
But being dropped into a country where you are desperately trying to make sense of anything and not even be able to communicate, I'm really struggling with this concept. There's there's just a void. And it's interesting because the converse is true. Like, if you look at so for example, in Arizona, I was working with a speech pathologist there, and she said depending on your culture is where you're gonna see the importance of language. So she said the issue is is that a lot of times when you're in a high EL population, the the admin are so hyperfixed that they're afraid that they're going to be putting this this kid perhaps in an IEP and shouldn't. And so there's a lot of kids who should have those accommodations that aren't because they're saying, oh, but we don't we don't wanna put them in there if it is a language difference. I guess glasses you're wearing, you'll see what you need to see. But just I don't know.

Liliana Stevenson [00:14:37]:
Just love kids. That's really love kids. Get to know kids, and they'll know that you wanna help them. And they're usually nine out of 10 saying, okay. I'll go with you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. And and the other piece I would add to it is just have a just have an asset based mindset in general. If you're coming from a deficit, oh, they're only reading at a second grade. This is tenth grade. Or, oh, they don't have the skills. They don't know, like, if that's what you're leading with Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:04]:
That alone right there is is not setting the student up for success.

Liliana Stevenson [00:15:08]:
Well, and that's the bilingualism. And that's I actually wrote a paper on it. It's on academia. I can send you the link. Because it's that English focus. Right? You must speak English. Yes. Absolutely.

Liliana Stevenson [00:15:17]:
But could we look at like, for these heritage speakers, for example, and we'll take the Spanish population. How many classes are there that are teaching Spanish grammar, Spanish literature, that these kids who just grew up speaking Spanish, they have a whole vacuum of knowledge because they were not traditionally trained in their native language. And when you put that in, as soon as they start making sense of that native language, the English comes like this. Like, it's crazy because they understand. Because the words that they're using, they see the patterns and they understand, and then they're able to apply that learning to English. And then they are truly bilingual. And how much of a blessing is that to our country that is so vast, and there are so many languages. If we could have so many certified bilinguals to help bridge that gap, I mean, come on.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:10]:
It'd be amazing.

Liliana Stevenson [00:16:10]:
Gift. It's a skill.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:11]:
Yeah. I'm I'm with I'm with you.

Liliana Stevenson [00:16:13]:
I know it. I know. I'm preaching to the choir. I know.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:17]:
I'm not the one you gotta convince, but I'm I'm with you. I'm with you. Okay. Okay. Alright. Alright. So this is kinda in the same lane, but a little different. And and I wanna get your take on this because we've we've been talking about it, and and we're gonna let's just say we're we're defaulting to general population of class.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:35]:
We haven't brought up honors and advanced classes. So

Liliana Stevenson [00:16:38]:
talk about that for days. But, yes, let me listen.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:41]:
Let let's let's go this direction now because, again, we're talking about EL students. Are they because I people have asked me, do you think the student can do an advanced placement class? Do you think the student can take an honors class? So what are your take? How do you respond to someone that might ask those kind of questions, and what is maybe your experience when it comes to EL students in advanced classes?

Liliana Stevenson [00:17:04]:
Well, I loved how you brought up if you lead with well, they can't. It kind of almost colors the question. It's like, well, okay. If you're asking, what are the concerns? I've got a kid right now who's brilliant. And the language difference, it just has not been it just hasn't been handled well, quite honestly. And, it wasn't till the job college fair that I was pulling things up. I'm like, oh, you know what? What college do you wanna go to? And she looked at me and said, I I can go to college. I was like, yeah.

Liliana Stevenson [00:17:33]:
Why not? And she's like, oh, I didn't ever think I could. No one told her she could go. They just figured, oh, well, here you are. You're struggling. We'll be happy to just, you know, move you on and and be happy with that. And so we're we're in the process of getting a pathway for her so that she can continue studying. It's the answer is yes. Absolutely.

Liliana Stevenson [00:17:54]:
Take a look at where they are. Scaffold that up. You've got brilliant kids with a brilliant gift. And if you wanna talk about problem solvers, they're all problem solvers. Why? They've had to figure out a way to get through the trials that have been handed to them based on, I'm living in a language that it's not my first one. I gotta make this happen.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:18:14]:
So should we encourage students to take advanced classes, advanced placement classes?

Liliana Stevenson [00:18:19]:
Yes. Because the issue is, like, for example, let's take my class of male heritage Spanish speakers. If they're in remedial English, okay, that sets them up for what? Are they gonna say, okay, next year you're gonna take English honors? No. They're like, wow, this group of kids, they just can't get this. We're gonna give them the next thing. And so when it comes to ACT, college placement, all that stuff, they are automatically filtered out. They don't have that because of the misplacement in the schools. The ripple effect is, is huge.

Liliana Stevenson [00:18:49]:
Okay.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:18:49]:
I like that. Thank you for clarifying that. So if anybody asked me, should I encourage students personally in certain situations, especially when it comes to dual credits, for example, I feel like it's gatekeeper. A lot of people will only just invite certain students to take their dual credits or the advanced placement class. They don't necessarily offer that or invite all students. I I've seen that a lot, and I just don't want our EL students to be part of that group that doesn't even know it's that these classes exist or aren't encouraged to take these classes. So I appreciate your take on this.

Liliana Stevenson [00:19:24]:
Hey. No worries.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:26]:
Okay. Alright. So if we have some folks that are interested, because you said there's a shortage. I I know each state has its own regulations and all those different things. But, generally, what what what are some of the things that a person that wants to have that certification? What are some things they need to be working towards?

Liliana Stevenson [00:19:43]:
The best thing is to check your community college because there are a lot of community college who colleges who offer the certification. I was teaching at a school once, and the department had asked me if I wanted to join a cohort. And it was at a really super nice university. And I looked at the price tag, and I was like, and do I have to pay that? And he's like, well, yeah. It's a deal we have with them. And I was like, oof. I was like, mate, I appreciate that, but this is not and he's like, can I tell you a secret? I was like, sure. He's like, the community college has a great program.

Liliana Stevenson [00:20:16]:
And the price difference was just mind blowing. So I went there. I mean, it's not and and it's not one of those things where you have to take so many times, especially you're at a community college. Take a class here that fits. Take a class there. You will at some point, of course, you know, have to do your in classroom teaching, but it's very accessible. It's very doable. And then with programs like the TOEFL and the TESOL and when all of those, it's very I don't know.

Liliana Stevenson [00:20:42]:
It's almost like geared towards perhaps those who are interested. Maybe almost like on a hobby basis. Oh, this would be interesting. Because then you could teach classes at night. It could be a side gig. I mean, one of my friends, she's from Ireland. I love listening to her, but that's it. She she taught EL classes at night at the community college.

Liliana Stevenson [00:20:59]:
So you could do that. It's very doable.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:01]:
If I only speak English, can I be an EL certified instructor?

Liliana Stevenson [00:21:05]:
Absolutely. One of the interesting things though is that as you do that, you're going to know English better. The grammar class that I took, she had, like, you know, 10 questions. Give me an example of the present progressive tense. Give me the example of the past perfect tense. And but because I speak other languages, I was able to do that. And there are people afterwards turning the test like, I have no idea. What is that? It's it's eye opening to understand, wow, our language is super complicated.

Liliana Stevenson [00:21:31]:
I can understand why people are like, man, I don't wanna learn English. This is terrible.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:35]:
So then do you encourage our English teachers, our ELA teachers to enter into the space, or or do they get an advantage if you will because of that or just you recommend it to anybody?

Liliana Stevenson [00:21:47]:
Well, it's interesting because in the ELA, a lot of that is analyzing literature. It's writing. It's all of those things. So I mean, in the writer, there there is that grammar stuff if you're thinking like maybe middle school where you're taught some of those things. Again, depending on what your passion is, I know English teachers have a lot of extra work because I know that some of the math teachers, which I actually appreciate, they have the programs. It's like, oh, go ahead and do 10 questions on whatever. You put it in, it grades it for you, whatever. Oh, here's 25 essays.

Liliana Stevenson [00:22:16]:
And you're like, here I am. But I mean, they absolutely can. I love education. I say keep going to school. It will open your eyes to a lot of different things and will help you be a better teacher overall, anyone.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:28]:
Okay. I'm with you on that. Listen, I I'll tell you this. I I've learned a lot, Lily, with this conversation in regards to EL. And, again, I I don't have that certification. But now I didn't first of all, I didn't think I was eligible to have a certification, but you've you've debunked that myth already. So thank you for that. Who knows? Maybe one of these days, I'll go for it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:47]:
I just you know, once you get a PhD, it's like, man, school again? Like, oh. Oh.

Liliana Stevenson [00:22:53]:
Maybe you can fully do it. Well, in your spare time. Just

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:57]:
Don't make me laugh. She said spare time. Maybe maybe one day. Maybe down the road, you know, especially with DEI issues and everything going on. Who knows? That might have to be a backup plan before I go to Uber. But far as I know, at the end of the day, it's if this has really been helpful, I'd love for you to to share any final words of advice to our listeners out there.

Liliana Stevenson [00:23:18]:
I think as teachers and educators, we love our kids. Like, that's that's just the big takeaway. And these kids who just who have that language difference, they they they need it too. And so just I don't know. I guess take off the box lens and put in the the who is this kid lens, and it literally it it transforms the experience.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:37]:
Remember, they're human beings at the end of the day. Like, they're they're people. I know sometimes we get so bogged down with, like you said, state standards and state testing and all those things and all these requirements. Forget that they're humans. And just, again, like you said, imagining what it's like for this individual to try to navigate the world, and the language that's spoken primarily is not as familiar for them, plus they have their own thoughts, and so they're thinking in multiple languages. It's just that at 16, maybe eight years old, those things can be a challenge. So I I I love those words of advice. Thank you so much.

Liliana Stevenson [00:24:13]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me. This has been awesome.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:16]:
Yeah. Well, if we have some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Liliana Stevenson [00:24:20]:
I would say go to my Instagram, world cricket girl. You'll find me there.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:24]:
Okay. And and, Stella, I don't know if you shared about your organizations. Give us one more reminder as far as your organization of cricket. We were kinda talking about it offline. So

Liliana Stevenson [00:24:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. It's good. So it's called Bet for America. No website yet, but, the program, the curriculum website is empoweredcricket.org. Again, and you can message me at my Instagram, but the state of Illinois has accepted it for continuing education credits for teachers who live in Illinois. So you can come to me.

Liliana Stevenson [00:24:54]:
I have very special price because I know we don't have any money. So I'm happy to, you know, do that. And then because I'm associated with Illinois, I can get those PDs set and and you're right as right.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:25:03]:
Alright. Well, Lily, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Liliana Stevenson [00:25:06]:
Thank you. Have a great day.

Are you subscribed to the podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today. I don’t want you to miss an episode. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!

Now if you enjoy listening to the show, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other advocates find the podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!