Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their skulls. Today's special guest is Erin Sanchez and Mickie Evans. Without further ado, Erin, Mickie, thank you so much for joining us today.

Miki Evans [00:00:19]:
Thank you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:20]:
All right. Well, I'm excited for today's topic. We've actually have your colleague on Charity. Moran has been on a few times, and, she talked about your book. And so I'm bringing you on as well. So really excited to continue this conversation. I'm gonna start with Mickey. I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Miki Evans [00:00:38]:
Okay. I'm gonna actually take it back a ways. I, got involved in place based learning after getting kicked out of two high schools and ended up in an alternative school, and the teachers were doing all place based learning. And so it really got what people call the misfits out into the community and got us really connected and empowered our voice within the community. So people began to change their narrative that they had about kids that were going to the, quote, dropout school. So that was where my journey began. And so I decided I wanted to become a teacher because it was life changing for me. And so I've used place based learning in the classroom, in higher ed as well, and it's been something that has been really dear to my heart.

Miki Evans [00:01:26]:
I've done some work with, reservations, Native American tribes, throughout the the country and found that it was just a way to really help students, youth, connect themselves to their community. So currently, I, do professional development and both project based learning and place based learning. And place based learning is really where my passion is.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:48]:
Awesome. Alright. Well, Erin, why don't you share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do?

Erin Sanchez [00:01:52]:
So I started my teaching career twenty five years ago in my hometown of Seven Hundred And Thirty Nine people in rural Minnesota. And I was lucky enough to begin my career at a self directed project based school. So students design projects from their own passions. Students aligned those projects to standards. They carried them out across the community, sometimes across the country, like paddle boating down the Mississippi River, doing water quality testing and bringing horses onto campus to demonstrate hippotherapy. And it really spoiled me to teach, anywhere else. But, my passion was teaching native American learners. And so to serve that population, I moved to Washington state, and I taught in environments where project based learning and place based learning weren't really happening.

Erin Sanchez [00:02:41]:
And I kinda shut my door and did the best I could. And then I found a little school South Of Seattle that was doing place based learning, very well, but it was teacher directed. So I was designing the projects. I was aligning them to standards. I was making those community connections, and I found out how challenging it was. So I did that for a number of years, and Mickey and I, our paths crossed about twenty years ago. We both realized that there was kind of this void around place based learning, especially in project based spaces. And so we created PBL Path to meet that need and, have been working in collaboration ever since.

Erin Sanchez [00:03:21]:
I've also been a project based learning coach, for tribal schools, and, I've been with the Buck Institute for Education or PBL Works, for about fourteen years now as well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:33]:
Oh, great. I feel honored to have such prestigious folks on the show here. So thank you. And and by the way, folks, Aaron and Mickey are both co authors, and Charity is also an author as well with place based learning link in the show notes, connecting inquiry, community and culture. So make sure you grab yourself a copy of the book that is currently out as we speak. Alright. So Mickey, I heard you say, play space learning a few times in your introduction. And so I wanna start there because, yes, we did have Charity on your your colleague, and she described it as well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:04:10]:
But for those who may not be as familiar or just kinda need a refresher, I wanna start there. Why don't you share with us what is place based learning? And and let's even add in maybe the differences between place based learning and project based learning.

Miki Evans [00:04:22]:
So in our view, place based learning is multifaceted. It's really about individuals, collective, as well as physical places, time, memory, traditions, and stories, as well as identities and cultures. And so within place based learning, we really focus on that and look at ways to tie students, learners, to their community to really uncover the stories, the untold stories, maybe the mistold stories in their community as a way we call it community story mapping as a way to identify what some of the challenges and the assets within the community and then building projects from that that, of course, are aligned with standards, but it's really connecting. We call it the pedagogy of connectedness because it's really connecting students to place and we take time. What's your play story? Really uncovering play story within the context of play space learning.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:20]:
Great answer. You covered it all. Thank you so much. So here's my thing. I'm curious because when I hear place based learning and kind of the way you described it and as you kind of talked about the two of you both say, hey, I have experience working on reservations, Native American, indigenous cultures. And and so I'm assuming that it it makes a lot of sense if you're working with certain groups of people. Is place based learning applicable for multi dimensional backgrounds of students or is it more specific to certain groups of people? I hope that makes sense.

Erin Sanchez [00:05:54]:
Yeah. I mean, it's it's applicable to to all students, to all learners, whether they be young learners or adult learners in all spaces. It it's more how much like unpacking or unlearning needs to be done to be able to make space for place based learning. And oftentimes both Miki and I have found that in Indigenous spaces, there isn't so much unlearning that needs to be done. I mean that colonial mindset and working through that, but oftentimes it's like, yes, they're already having a hunting camp and going on canoe journey and it just hasn't been connected to traditional schooling. So it's more making those connections where sometimes in non indigenous spaces, it's explaining like this is how you connect the community with students' lived experiences and with their histories and with their cultures.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:48]:
So there's I guess, what I'm hearing is depending on the setting, it's just kind of the I guess, a target as far as what needs to be explained or where the places need to. So, like, for one group, you might be explaining, like, here, I want you to try to see if you can connect to your own personal community. And then maybe in another group, you might be saying, how does your situation or how how can you, I guess, relate maybe to this group of people? I I guess I wasn't clear exactly. Can Mickey, it look like you want to jump in.

Miki Evans [00:07:19]:
Yeah. So I have an example. The alternative school I went to, one of the first place based learning projects we did, I grew up in an island off of Seattle, and it was the the space and the place that the first Japanese were interned, okay, during World War two. And so that was our journey. And so I had tons of Japanese families that live on and tons of Japanese, friends. And so it was an opportunity for me to learn about the resilience as well as the history of it, how community came together to support them, and at other times that community fell apart. So for me, it was even though I'm not Japanese, I didn't wasn't in but I I understood my dentist who grew up in an intern camp incarcerated, basically. So for me, it was and we had all lots of life in our, in our alternative school.

Miki Evans [00:08:14]:
So for all of us, it was this common knowledge and really hit on social injustice. Right? Race and equity.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:20]:
Okay. Alright. Well, that makes sense. Alright. So let's talk about the community side of things. Aaron, I'm a throw this one at you because it sounds like and I'm just going off appearance. Now Mickey did say she doesn't identify as Japanese. As I'm looking at you, I'm not sure if you identified as indigenous.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:37]:
But it sounds like if you are wanting to have an authentic experience for your students, you wanna bring in individuals with some of those lived experiences that you're teaching about or talking about, which means you're gonna probably have to involve the community within some of your lessons and things like that. So I wanna start with you, Aaron, as far as what are some ways that we can connect with community members with place based learning and maybe even add to it with why is that even important?

Erin Sanchez [00:09:08]:
Okay. The the importance will come out in the examples that I give of the how. And the how is to start with the experts in your classroom. I think oftentimes we miss the cultural expertise that our students carry, and we're so focused on our content that we forget that we have this room full of experts. And so the process of community asset mapping, which we talk about in our book, begins in the classroom, finding out what students value and what expertise they carry. So it might be that a student works in her grandparents' Filipino bakery on the weekends and knows how to bake all of these items that are culturally significant, or another student goes to the Dine Nation in the summer and helps family members weave traditional weaving. And so once you have once a teacher has a deeper understanding of the assets in the classroom, then they can begin to shape place based experiences around that. And then the next layer might be family, so what expertise does families have that could be brought into the classroom? And then doing that community asset map where maybe you're taking a community walk, a neighborhood walk, and figuring out, okay, where are our mechanic's shops, and what is the history of this mural on the side of this bank, and you broaden that.

Erin Sanchez [00:10:38]:
And as a school leader, one of the greatest gifts that you can give to classroom teachers is to develop kind of a community asset database. Put out letters saying, this is what our students do. This is what place based learning is. Like, are you willing to help? Are you willing to step into the classroom? Or do you have an issue that students might be able to help you solve? So kind of these different layers connecting with the community but starting with students.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:06]:
So starting with the students, so that means you gotta get to know them somehow. So Yeah. You said the asset mapping, is that kind of the idea? Like, is it kind of, like, a survey on how you do beginning of the year type of thing? It's like, tell us a little bit about yourself, what language, home language, those kind of questions, or is there something else?

Miki Evans [00:11:23]:
We'll catch it under place stories. What's your place story? And tell us about your connection to this place because then that really begins to get at what their stories are. And those are so powerful in terms of getting to know and understand someone.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:40]:
Gotcha. You

Erin Sanchez [00:11:40]:
might ask them to, like like, visually represent a place of importance to them too, and they can create counter maps before maybe you even introduce the concept concept of counter mapping. But they that they have these maps of places of significance in their heads and how they express that as well. I always have like a wonder wall in my classroom too, where they're just putting questions. They're adding questions to that, things they're really curious about. So not only their expertise, but also just their innate curiosity. And I might build an entire project just from one of those questions that winds up on the Wonderwall.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:16]:
You gotta tell me more about this Wonderwall, Erin. What what is that? Describe it a little bit more, please.

Erin Sanchez [00:12:24]:
Oh, for sure. So lots of times, students have great questions, but they might not ask them at the right time or the right time as far as the teacher is concerned. But they'd be like, woah. Why does this work that way? Or, How come, you know, when I go down to the the casino it doesn't seem like my culture is represented even though the casino is part of the tribe? And so I'll say, Oh, that's an awesome question. Like add that to our Wonderwall. And then eventually, I've collected these questions, and I can mine those questions then for project ideas.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:57]:
So I wish I had known about this when I was teaching second grade. The one year the one year I taught second grade, that would have been helpful. So, Mickey, I hear that we start with students, get their information, understand them, the backgrounds. Do we how do we ask, like, is there a way that we should ask our students, are you okay if us sharing your culture or is that something that we just make automatic assumptions that we wanna, like, highlight? I think sometimes when we want to provide stuff or representation for our students, we just kinda assume that that's what we want them or that's what they want, which sometimes some students, they might feel ostracized or they might feel, like, you know, some of the responses may come in so it may make them feel uncomfortable because the stuff that they like to do or their their customs might be deemed as not traditional or not normal for maybe what mainstream might view as normal. So are there questions that we ask our students as far as sharing and as far as their level of comfort?

Miki Evans [00:13:59]:
So we don't wanna assume, but definitely don't believe we want to assume. And once again, it gets through storytelling. In the book, we talk about the selfie project, and that was actually shared with me from a friend who were at the beginning of the school year. And as a teacher, I put together a slide show about my place, places that I'm interested in, things about food that I like, things about my culture. And then the students do the same thing as a way way of sharing their stories using selfies, so to speak. So it's a great way to begin to build that trust right from the get go in the classroom. But for the sharing, we have to really have our eyes on how do we create a classroom that is based on trust and trusting relationships, teacher to student, student to student. So really attending to that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:14:50]:
Okay. That makes sense. So let's talk about some of the barriers that might be involved. Right? So obviously, we want to get to know our students first. We start there. We want to invite some of the community members out there. Erin, what are some of the barriers that we might face as educators when it comes to the place based learning and connecting with the community?

Erin Sanchez [00:15:10]:
Well, this connects perfectly to the last question too, because the very first barrier is teacher mindset and teacher bias around not only students and their potential, but the potential of community partners and just giving up a little bit of that, that perceived control of the classroom environment to allow others to come in and be the teachers. So firstly, teachers just really looking at, yes, they're responsible for student outcomes, but if they deeply understand their students strengths and needs and interests, that they can effectively customize the learning, and that those community assets are just yet another resource to support students in their learning. So firstly, we we go in-depth in the book as to how to uncover some of those hidden biases that we might have as educators around inviting others into the classroom or seeing our students as experts. And then once we've done that inner work and that reflective work, which not that we're ever done, it's ongoing, but then we can start to look at some of the structures that might be presenting a barrier to place based learning.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:25]:
I'm sorry. What type of biases could a teacher have in regards to some of the community?

Erin Sanchez [00:16:31]:
Oh, gosh. I mean, their knowledge of the standards. And I know that sounds strange, but sometimes we we hold our content very close to it. We forget that it is used in the world outside of K-twelve education, and so we might think, Oh, if I were to bring in a statistician to talk to my students about how to analyze this data that we collected, it's gonna take too much time and they really don't understand what that's gonna look like on a standardized test, and granted they might not, but seeing how absolutely beneficial it is to see how that content lives in people's professions, right? Lives in the work that they do every day that benefits the community. And so, yeah, even, even biases like that, or just, we, we want our schools to be really safe environments. And oftentimes community partners have to jump through a lot of hoops to be able to get clearance to even be on campus, which can be a barrier, but it also is a bias, assuming that everybody who comes onto campus might not be safe. And so that's where leadership kind of comes in as well and says, okay, I can remove some of these physical barriers or make it a little easier for our campus walls to be permeable and allow for these experts to come on board.

Miki Evans [00:17:49]:
Can can I share an example around some of these perceived assumptions? I was working with the school up north that ordered the the lobbying reservation, and we were getting ready for student led conferences. And so I've I've been coaching the school, and one teacher said, you know, well, those parents never show up. They never come. They really don't care. It kinda took me aback, and I said, well, let's unpack that. I wonder why they're not coming. One, do they have transportation? Can they get up the hill and go to school? Two, what was their experience when they went through school in this district? And so I formed a committee, and we went down and met with tribal council. We suggested bringing the conferences to the reservation, and so we held them in the round.

Miki Evans [00:18:36]:
We had aunties, parents, cousins, sisters, siblings, serve food, had a raffle. And we had over 95% attendance for that particular for that student led conference. So it's just kind of unpacking what those perceived assumptions are that are biased. Right?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:18:57]:
Well, did the I I hope the teacher was there and saw that because those are those are the comments, unfortunately, that other teachers like, that one might have been vocal. That teacher might have been vocal, but then you you never know. There might have been other teachers and staff that might have felt the same way. And and so just seeing the participation and seeing, yeah, it is possible. But we also have to keep in mind that sometimes as educators, we do things as convenient for us. So we offer IEP meetings during this school day when we're at work as opposed to at our school, not considering, like so I used to work on a rest too a few years back and doing special ed. This is why I'm bringing this up because I remember some of these days where I literally would have t us a parent say, hey. I don't have the gas to to get in to to do the IEP meeting, but I I still wanna be involved.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:49]:
So it's not like this this the parent didn't care. Just they literally didn't have the gas or a way to the school. So okay. So how do we make this work for this parent? So I'm I'm sad that the conversation had to come up, but I'm glad that it did come up because then you saw that. Oh, maybe there's some areas for growth for us and it seemed very successful. So I'm glad all that worked out for you.

Miki Evans [00:20:11]:
It transformed the school culture. So we made connections with the Lomi archives, and we would change out photos over the years that they had. There was a welcoming of canoe journey rather than going, oh, those kids are not showing up to school because they're out there practicing. So it really transformed the culture and all of a sudden all those Native American boys that were in that one classroom down in the basement were integrated into other classrooms. Right? So it it was really transformative for the kids as well as the the non native kids.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:44]:
Gotcha. Alright. So, Erin, I'm sorry. We we went down a a lane. So I'm sorry for cutting you off earlier.

Erin Sanchez [00:20:53]:
No. That's okay.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:20:54]:
Could you share some more barriers that that might be in place when it comes to connecting with the community?

Erin Sanchez [00:20:59]:
Yeah. I one of the biggest barriers and sometimes the toughest to overcome is the schedule, the school schedule. And depending on how rigid that schedule is, especially at secondary, you know, you maybe got six, seven periods a day, and you're trying to fit a place based learning journey into a forty five, fifty five minute period makes it really challenging to involve those community partners in a rich and robust way. But we provide some avenues for what that could look like. I mean, even even planning a project with one other teacher. So it's interdisciplinary and using PLC time in order to, like, design this place based learning experience and getting one community partner to come in during a class and videotaping that class and having all those subsequent classes watch the video of that community partner coming in. Maybe they've submitted questions in advance to be able to have their questions asked of the community partner. So there are ways around it.

Erin Sanchez [00:22:05]:
And then as schedules get a little bit more permeable, maybe you're combining two class periods and having a block where you might have enough time to be able to take that initial community walk or, you know, head down to the hatchery and work work with the hatchery to raise salmon roe and release them into a stream just a little bit more time. And then as place based learning grows and people see the power of it and it becomes synonymous with schooling, then leaders tend to see, okay, I can create a schedule that has more versatility, that has more openness to it to allow for these these richer place based experiences. But it doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes it's it's a three to five year process to be able to create that in a schedule. But I always say to teachers, even if you have to start small just in your classroom, even in one or two periods during the day, I mean, that's something. Like, starting small is just fine. We like that. We support that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:08]:
That was gonna be my next question. Like, could bury bury be time? Because it sounds like I hear some of the teachers think like, oh, this is sound, this sounds amazing. But that means I gotta, I might have to connect with the local hatchery or I might have to connect with the local this or that and then this schedules align and make sure that they can come in doing our class period and like, is is time one of those barriers? And if so, are the it sound like there are some ways around it. Is that right, Mickey?

Miki Evans [00:23:34]:
Yeah. I mean, we can use different technologies. We can use d r a r x r as a way to connect students with different places within their community. Nat Geo has a, program that they do, ArcGIS, where they're actually mapping the community, and then they can capture stories of community members. So there are different ways that we can use technologies rather than having to just bring them in. What I love about a face to face is that relationship building. And like Erin was saying, by working with different partners, students begin to see different career pathways that they may never have thought about. So it's kind of working with some of these mentors.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:16]:
Got you. Alright. Well, we've talked about what place based learning is, ways that we can connect with the community members, some barriers that we might face. I love to to kinda wrap things up with some strategies that we can share with the audience members that are listening. Of course, folks, we want you to grab the book, place based learning. Again, link in the show notes. But could you let's start with Erin. Could you share some strategies? Again, final strategies that you wanna share with the audience out there in regards to tapping into the community.

Erin Sanchez [00:24:46]:
The most effective strategy that I have found is figuring out what students care about and how they see their community and their places. So most of my teaching experience, I was teaching in a community where I was not a part of the culture, whether that was in indigenous spaces or just teaching black and brown students in urban places. And I saw that place very differently than they did. And so taking the time at the beginning of the year to, like Miki said, really listen to their place stories and know that place from their perspective was critical. Like I always started with this, like, mini project called A Day in the Life, where they would tell me what a day in their life looked like, and they would capture that in images. So it was like a photojournalism story or a photo essay because I wanted to know from their perspective, what what was schooling like? What was taking the city bus in the morning, getting siblings ready for school? Like, what did their day consist of? So just that deep knowledge and understanding of who students are and basing any sort of place based journey around around that understanding.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:26:02]:
Alright. What about you, May?

Miki Evans [00:26:04]:
Yeah. I agree with all of that. Probably one of the greatest successes I had when I was working with secondary students is I actually had a committee of students that did the reach out to community members, and it was far more effective than myself reaching out. And you can even do that with middle schoolers and some of the upper fourth and fifth grade students as well. And like Erin said earlier, to build that database, And you wanna make sure you're not just using this part partner once. Thinking about an evergreen place based journey where you can continue to work with that partner and the relationship is built along the way. So the those are some of the strategies that we've used that we have found to be effective.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:26:47]:
Alright. Well, this has been a very informative conversation and a really good continuation. And, folks, I'm gonna leave the links for charities to episodes where she talks about project based learning. She talked about place based learning as well. So that will all you can listen to the three part series, if you will, on place based learning and everything that's around it. We're gonna just wrap things up. Erin, I would love for you to share any final words of advice to our listeners that are out there.

Erin Sanchez [00:27:16]:
Oh, goodness. Just start small and start with your students and have a blast. Like, it's it's so much fun just to see them come to life. And it's a different environment when you get those community partners in the room. So And

Miki Evans [00:27:31]:
when you, really empower student voice. And so it really becomes a call to action. And the kids get so engaged in that. And, yes, absolutely. Start small, and you'll have to do a whole big old place based learning journey. Start with something small and work with your community partners.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:49]:
Yeah. Start small. Folks, you don't have to do this extravagant thing for the first time. Start small and build from there. That's that was that's a good takeaway from today. If we have some folks that wanna connect with you, Mickey, what's the best way to reach you online?

Miki Evans [00:28:02]:
They can reach me through my email, [email protected]. P b l path has an Instagram, which is not the way, but a Facebook page and, through LinkedIn as well through, p b l path as well as my name.

Erin Sanchez [00:28:17]:
And our website too. So if you remember where p b l path, we're at pblpath.com.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:22]:
There it is. Alright. Well, Erin and Miki has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Erin Sanchez [00:28:26]:
Thank you, Sheldon. Pleasure.

Are you subscribed to the podcast? If you’re not, I want to encourage you to do that today. I don’t want you to miss an episode. Click here to subscribe in iTunes!

Now if you enjoy listening to the show, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other advocates find the podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. Just click here to review, select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” and let me know what your favorite part of the podcast is. Thank you!