Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:
Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity Podcast. A podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their skulls. Today's special guest is Doctor. Andrea Sheldon. So without further ado, Andrea, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:00:17]:
Thank you so much for

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:19]:
having me. Pleasure is all mine. And I'm excited for today's topic because we're gonna be talking about some ways that our school leaders can support our staff of color because ultimately we want our staff to stay. So before we get into today's topic, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:00:34]:
Yes. So I'm an educator by trade. I wear a couple of different hats. I serve as a leadership coach with teach plus, and I lead the Philadelphia affinity group network, which is a citywide network of affinity groups for educators of color. I also am a qualitative researcher and scholar and author. I wrote the book support and retain educators of color, which focuses on practical strategies that district and building leaders can implement to address working conditions to support teachers of color.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:05]:
Alright. Well, let's let's do it. Let's get into it because, you know, I work with school leaders as L. And L of the common conversations that comes up, especially when it comes to white school leaders is, okay, I brought in some staff of color. I recognize my school demographics look a certain way, and I wanted to match as much as possible. Could we know the research supports that teachers and students or students do better when they have teachers that look like them. So it makes sense to me, and so that's what our school leaders are doing. However, they just have some challenges when it comes to maybe connecting on a relationship side of things with their staff of color or they're like, well, I don't really know how to have these conversations outside of maybe the academic or maybe even school discipline support.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:48]:
They just kinda wanna stick to the professional side of things if you will. And so, I'm curious on your end based off of your research, should school leaders be color blind?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:01:58]:
Such a great question and I address that question directly in my book. Right? Should leaders ignore race or do they confront it? Right? And I think at its core what we need to recognize any educational leader is that schools are a microcosm of society. So all of the, structural inequalities that exist outside of school walls come into schools. Right? So we like to think of schools as these really, like, nice places where everyone is friendly, everyone gets along, but the reality is we need to confront the same issues that we want to confront outside of school in schools in order to create systems and structures that are equitable and supportive of everyone.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:37]:
Okay. Alright. I hear that. So, you're saying that we have to recognize that what happens outside of school happens in school. Is it that's that was my understanding what your response was. But you we could argue, especially a lot of parents will say, well, you know, stick to just the math, the the reading, writing, and arithmetic. How do you respond in those type of situations?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:02:59]:
When we either create systems that exude color blindness or we our behavior itself is color blind, that compounds preexisting inequalities. So if we want to achieve equitable outcomes and supports, whether it's for learners or in this case, conditions that support and retain educators of color, we have to address those inequalities head on. We can't address inequalities if we're color blind. We have to confront those issues in a head on manner. If not, we maintain the status quo, which in this case is going to adversely affect the educator of color in my building.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:36]:
Okay. So alright. So I think you and I are both on the same page. We have to address this head on. And I know a lot of my folks listening, and I've mentioned this before, it's, like, sometimes as school leaders, we might have said something with the best intentions. We can get into implicit bias. We can get into microaggressions and all those kind of things. Something has happened in the past.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:55]:
I've had, the wrong I said the wrong thing. I got called out. And now I'm tiptoeing or I'm afraid to have conversations outside of, again, the academic side of things. Do you have any type of tips or or maybe even strategies that you can give to our school leaders who might have made a mistake in the past? Or if they haven't made a mistake, they're just waiting to make that mistake, And so they're again afraid. Like, I I agree with you, Andrea. I want to make sure that I I I do recognize that these things happen outside of it, and we had to hit it head on. What are some ways that I can address this head on?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:04:30]:
Yeah. So you mentioned it, already. Right? But this idea of leaders have to interrogate their biases. I think that is the first thing. So it's not just about acknowledging that everyone has bias, but really thinking about and having the humility and the vulnerability to interrogate those things that are ingrained in us by society, by external influences, by the media, etcetera. And so, you know, it's critical that leaders are asking themselves and interrogating what are those things that have shaped my understanding of other people groups? What stereotypes or misinformation have I been exposed to and how do I unlearn and potentially relearn? The second thing and you spoke to this idea of the misstep. One thing that when I'm working with leaders is helping them unpack this idea that intent is not the same as impact. So really learning to disentangle this idea of my intentions may have been good, but how do I uncover the ways in which I have unintentionally impacted others? And what does it look like for me as a leader to take ownership and learn from that? And that requires having uncomfortable conversations.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:05:41]:
It requires accepting responsibility. But ultimately, if we have that humility to acknowledge the impact that we have, despite our best intentions, we can ultimately grow and commit to doing better in the future.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:54]:
Yeah. I mean, I agree. We we can definitely commit to doing better. And it's sometimes it's it's easy. I've actually had someone say, oh, but you're a person of color. You you can engage in these conversations. It's easier for you. And and I understand where they're coming from, you know, because I I could push back and be like, well, you know, you you come from more level of privilege.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:14]:
You're more likely folks like you are more likely to be in these positions than I've you know? So we could have those kind of conversations, but, ultimately, I think at the end of the day, it's important to engage in these conversations no matter what your background is. I like to use examples such as, you know what? I know I can't personally relate to some of the struggles that women experience in corporate America, in educational spaces, things like that. I cannot relate. However, I can empathize with a lot of the things that folks are coming to me about. So maybe if I am a school leader and I have a staff of color express maybe, hey. I feel like I've been discriminated against by you, or I feel as if maybe a colleague has discriminated or student or family. I'm dealing with this family situation, and they're coming at me. I feel like it's racially based.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:06]:
Do you have some tips, Andrea, for school leaders who are in these type of predicaments?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:07:12]:
Yes. And I before I get into the strategies that leaders can utilize to uncover, right, some of these stories that educators of color have about marginalization or discrimination in the workplace. I wanna take a step back to something powerful you mentioned about this idea of assumed cultural dexterity. Right? Or this idea that educators of color themselves or ourselves I say ourselves as a woman of color are able to just navigate this idea of being culturally responsive. And the reality is that being culturally responsive or culturally affirming is not an inherent trait. All of us have to learn what it is like to navigate these systems of oppression and it's critical that white educators, you know, understand again that this is something that we all have to learn. Now, we all come from a different starting point, but I think there's a piece around solidarity that lets us know that we're all a work in progress. Again, you spoke to being a man of color, you know, what does it like look like for you to learn about the ways in which other people experience oppression? I think that's powerful.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:08:18]:
None of us have it. We're all learning. In terms of what does it look like for educators or leaders to sit and listen to educators of color when they talk about the ways in which they've experienced discrimination or oppression, in my book I talk about this idea of pulse meetings or information gathering. You know, we can collect all the data we want through quantitative surveys and those are powerful, But one of the most powerful ways that leaders can learn what's happening to educators in their building is to ask them their stories. And so this can occur within a meeting, 15, 20 minutes, you know, creating conditions that are comfortable to an educator of color. So for example, if the relationship between you and that educator is not there, maybe bringing in someone from the outside, or maybe having the meeting in a place that is low stress. Maybe not in your office is the best place. But you can use this meeting as a way of of understanding where this person is coming from.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:09:15]:
So what are you experiencing? How can I support you? What are some of the factors, right, that allow you to feel affirmed or welcomed in this place. Where are we going wrong? What can I do differently? Now with these questions again you're soliciting input but it's critical that we're not asking educators of color to fix the ways in which they are being oppressed in buildings. We wanna center their voices and their stories, but ultimately it's up to us as leaders to create conditions or to correct conditions that are oppressive to educators of color.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:46]:
Can I throw out a caveat?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:09:48]:
Sure.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:48]:
I hear what you're saying. I think about compliance. My supervisor is above me. I'm a person of color. I'm in a space where I'm already feeling as if I had to prove myself or I had to work twice as hard. You know, that's the background. That's the family structure. That's what I was always taught about.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:04]:
Now I have my supervisor asking me to tell me what am I doing wrong? How can I help you feel better about your situation? What do you need in order to thrive? What can tools and resources? So best intent Mhmm. But the impact, like you mentioned, the impact to that leader, I'm sorry, that staff of color is if I say to the wrong thing, if I offend this individual, I have to navigate this in a certain way and I know a lot of folks will hold back. I'm like, is there maybe a way that a school leader could reinforce? No. No. Seriously, I really do want you to tell me how you feel. I really do wanna know these things. What are your thoughts there?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:10:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I smile because that's so true. We have there are some folks that are gonna speak truth to power and then there is the reality where, you know, sometimes we are concerned about, you know, the optics or there might be a fear of retaliation or fear of harm. Leaders know their teachers. And so perhaps that pulse meeting may not be the best, you know, strategy to implement. If you can't have that conversation, my question is, is there another leader in the building, in the district that can? If that is not at your disposal, is there an external partner that you can work with? Institutions of higher education, consultancies, nonprofits that you can partner with to bring in and to have a landscape analysis and to work with educators in your building to figure out what's going on? How are y'all feeling? How can we support you better? If that is not possible, leaders can also create spaces like affinity groups. Yeah.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:11:42]:
Right? Where educators of color are existing in community with folks that reflect aspects of their own backgrounds, share and exchange stories, and then also kind of coalition build and collect feedback to them in turn provide their administrators. So there's a variety of ways. So my book is around strategies. To your point, we wanna empower and equip leaders to think about what works best for them in their setting considering the dynamics of their building and educators.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:11]:
Wow. You hit it or you hit it right there. Those affinity groups are are can be very powerful because I'm sitting there as as we're Eakins, I'm like, okay, you got folks that might have imposter syndrome. You might have women that are on some angry black woman. Am I gonna come across as an angry black person? You know, we tend to use our hands a lot, you know. Is that gonna come off as aggressive? Like, these are things that we're thinking about while we're in these staff meetings or these post meetings as you mentioned. And and so, I don't want to necessarily push too hard, and I love those examples or strategies that you gave. You know, I could, you know, bring in someone that that might have a better relationship, you know, maybe a third party or find another location or put together those affinity groups.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:12:52]:
Any any other strategies that that you can think of that might be supportive in this in this aspect?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:12:58]:
You know, we can even think about low hanging fruit in terms of using, right, like surveys but that are open ended and allowing time during the school day for educators to maybe fill something out. You know, what allows you to feel L in this building? How can we celebrate your success? What motivates you to come to work every day? If you could change 3 school wide priorities around how we support and retain staff, what would those things be? And so again, providing space during a school day, the outlet of an open ended survey where you're able to collect that data from educators again to really center their voices and their needs. And that's really what's at the core of this. Not what do we think educators need. Again, you know, you spoke about color blindness and it's not just about color blindness, but in what ways are we blind to other aspects of identity that might be vulnerable to marginalization. But again, how are we creating outlets that allow everyone's voice to be heard and ultimately for them to feel welcome and included in the school culture?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:55]:
At the end of the day, right, We want them to feel welcome and included. Okay. Let's shift gears just a little bit. Okay? I like this conversation. I like how we're talking about some strategies for our school leaders to develop a rapport with their folks of color. Again, ultimately, we want to retain them. I I wonder if there's some things outside of maybe their school related responsibilities that I might consider as a school leader that might support maybe even for mental health or just maybe the the belongingness of a staff member of color.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:14:30]:
Yeah. I mean, I would say in terms of what are some outside things outside of, like, the academic or instructional supports. It's critical that we center educators' humanity. And what does that look like? And I, in my book, I talk about a variety of educators stories that are from real educators, but there's one story in particular, which I think captures this idea of what does it look like to center someone's humanity. An educator, at the time was, attending, like a graduate program and was was working really hard, at the same time was a full time teacher. And she came to school one day, and and her leader noticed that she was just looking really tired. And so the leader in that moment, upon looking at the educator said, you know what? I need you to take care of yourself. You need to be a 100% to, like, support our kids.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:15:17]:
I trust you. You're amazing. You're in this building every day. I'm actually gonna teach some of your classes today so you can go home and rest. Now that is a very extreme example, but I love that story because she recognizes and honors, right, what an educator has brought to the school every day and the way in which she can uplift them through things that are within her locus of control. And so what does that look like on a more practical note for leaders that can't necessarily cover classes? And what ways are you maybe protecting teachers' work time during the day so they're not taking work home? And what ways are you creating opportunities for mentorship so that educators can learn from one another? In what ways are you maybe offering opportunities for leadership and advancement and cultivating the gifts that educators are bringing into the building? Also, in what ways are you just avoiding incurring uncompensated additional labor? Right? Educators of color are often called upon to be the disciplinarians, to give the PD on classroom management. If you have speakers of other language, they become the translators in the building. In what ways are you honoring their humanity by sticking to their job responsibilities and not asking them to take on all of these additional unpaid duties? And if those duties are critical, in what ways are you honoring their humanity? Maybe by compensating them for that additional labor.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:16:41]:
So again, small things that we can do to refine working conditions again to center who our educators are.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:49]:
You know, I've I've been doing a lot of research and had a lot of conversations on on that in regards to the kind of the tokenization of a lot of our staff members. Like you said, they're always the one who has to deal with all the discipline. They're the ones that, like you said, have to talk about how to be culturally responsive teacher or how to classroom management and all these things. They could be a stellar English teacher. They could be a stellar math teacher. Those professional development opportunities only go to the white staff and so, this staff of color get all the quote, unquote, culture related type of and so they get pigeonholed. They need to pull up their resume. They pull up their their CV, and all it says is diversity, diversity, diversity related stuff.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:29]:
And then all their colleagues and their counterparts are getting all of the other jobs because they can't do it. And so I've seen it all the time, and it's happened to me. It's like I I tell people, look, I I'd love to teach your class, but I can do other things outside of just your diversity class. Like, I've been a principal. I've been a teacher. I've done special ed. I've done this. I've done that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:50]:
I can also excel in that as well. But when we get to a place and I and I love that you brought this up because I I just wanna give this reminder to our school leaders. I I hear what folks are saying. I I hear what you're, you know, I see you have the best intentions, but don't limit your staff of color or even your LGBTQ plus community folks to just those topics when it comes to professional development.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:18:13]:
And, you know, again, you talk about what are ways that we can what are the things outside the academic or instructional supports? In what ways, if you're not able to, well, 1, do leaders know the areas where their educators wanna improve? What are the areas where they wanna grow? Are you pointing them to opportunities for them to excel? You know, are you connecting them with leadership opportunities inside the district, outside the district? If you know that they have an interest in a particular pedagogy, can you connect them with a resource that will push them? Again, acknowledging the gifts, the talents that they bring, the expertise that they bring to the table outside of just managing and really not even managing. What we're asking folks to do is to police black and brown bodies. And so we need to really think beyond that because at the end of the day, black and brown educators are coming to our buildings. They wanna work with kiddos that reflect their backgrounds and support all kiddos, really. Eakins what ways are we encouraging them and what brings them to teaching in the first place, not pushing them out because of our assumptions about what they bring to the profession.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:14]:
Say that one more time. Now now because of what?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:19:17]:
The the assumptions that we have about them. So

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:20]:
Whew. Girl, I'll tell alright. Now I I'll tell you what, That that was that right there, I mean, but it hit hard. That hit hard because, again, we we do make a lot of assumptions. We just assume that someone's gonna be the spokesperson for this community or this identity. Oh, they they've lived they have lived experiences and oh, yeah. We we'll call Johnny or or mister whoever, miss whoever because oh, they they'll they'll love to speak about it. And, again, that person never gets any other opportunities.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:46]:
That's the only time that they get to speak is for those based off of those assumptions that you make. So I like to tell my school leaders. I tell them, look. The conversation rather than assuming, you you should ask a question such as, has this been your experience or are you open to these conversations or open to doing this professional development? And if so, what areas of focus would you like to present on? See now, I'm, oh, I'm I'm putting it back on that staff member. So I've asked him, hey. Are you interested in presenting in what areas of focus as opposed to just assuming that they're all the culturally responsive that's that's that person. Do you have anything similar that you do as well?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:20:25]:
Yeah. I mean, I think part of that should occur in the onboarding process. Like, what are they proud about? What are they most interested in? It can also come to play when we're doing, you know, evaluations, not just jumping to, you need to work on Danielson domain XYZ, but, you know, what what went well in this lesson? What are you most excited about? What do you perceive as next steps? How can I support you? What do you wanna learn more about? We often think about, you know, the ways in which we need to kind of hone in on maybe perceived deficits or things that need to improve. And we all have areas that we need to improve but we often overlook 1, opportunities for educators to name their areas of brilliance And 2, think about how do we strengthen those areas. And so again, I think just connecting and asking educators outright, the areas that they wanna grow can be powerful.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:13]:
Just ask. I know some folks get it. They're they're afraid. They're afraid to ask these questions.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:21:19]:
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think, Udi Muhammad does it so well. She uses this idea of, like, genius. Right? What is your area of genius? The teacher leaders that I work with and train, like, how can we learn from your genius? What are you amazing at that we can all learn from? What do you bring to our collective or our cohort? And to ask those questions not in a way to, you know, burn folks out and again Eakins of pull on them. Oh, you're gonna give this PD on this subject, but no what are you awesome at and how can I support you in fueling that passion?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:47]:
Got it. I like it. Alright. So I I L you this I mean you you've you've provided a lot of mic drop moments and and some some very and I've learned a lot, especially, I mean, you you you hit home with a a lot of your comments, and I think that folks that are listening to this can find your your information valuable. And, of course, I always encourage folks to to to get the book as L. Support and retain educators of color, 6 principles for culturally affirming leadership. But, I'd love for you and Andrea to take us home with maybe any final words of advice you wanna provide to our listeners.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:22:21]:
I would move back to the the comment that I made in the beginning around schools are microcosm of society. It's critical that we acknowledge that just like we all aspire to create a more just society, not just for our current generation, but for future generations, it's critical that we do so in our schools. So if we wanna create more equitable outcomes and opportunities for our babies, our students, that starts with the working conditions that we're creating for educators. And so for leaders asking those hard questions around what are our biases? In what ways do we disentangle intent versus impact? Asking those hard questions is the beginning of a necessary work. And so I'm excited for educators and leaders who wanna engage in that work. Kudos to you, you're getting started, but it is a road that requires

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:16]:
Right? Not at all. And that that trickles down to your your community as L. Not just your your staff, but your students as L. Especially a lot of our schools, We we see a lot more students of color within our student demographics than our staff. And so we definitely don't wanna be color blind in that realm either. So we brought the fire today. Thank you so much. If we have some folks that wanna connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:23:40]:
Yes. So I can be found at ww.ilmconsultinggroup.org. I can also be found on LinkedIn, Andrea, Torero, Sheldon. Excited to connect with folks online, around the book, and otherwise, equity focused initiatives that they're doing in their districts and buildings to support and retain educators of color.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:59]:
Alright, Andrea. It has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Andrea Gabbadon [00:24:03]:
Yeah. Likewise.

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