Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:

Welcome, advocates, to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is doctor Rachel Maymood. And, listen, I have been speaking to Rachel for I don't know. This is, like, our 5th time talking at this point. We've we've decided that we're going to do a podcast interview, but we just keep chopping it up. And the next thing we know, we're like, oh, we're out of time. We need to reschedule. So Without further ado, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rachael Mahmood [00:00:36]:

Thank you so much. It's just an honor to be on this podcast with you. I've been a huge fan of the Leading Equity podcast, And I have definitely listened to over 200 episodes on your podcast. I log in every Monday to hear your new show. And, usually, on my way to work, you're doing amazing work in this

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:56]:

area. Thank you. That that means a lot. You know? I I really do appreciate you, for listening. You still got another 100 or so to to to catch up on, but we'll we'll we'll slide with a 200. We'll we'll let you slide there. So, obviously, you and I have talked for a while, and, again, it's an honor to have you on the show. And I know a little bit about yourself, but could you share with the audience? Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you currently

Rachael Mahmood [00:01:20]:

do. Sure. My name is doctor Rachel Mahmud, and I started my career in early Childhood classrooms. And then I moved to teaching elementary school where I've been for about the last 20 years. Currently, I teach 5th grade in a diverse title one School in Illinois. For the last 15 years, I've led equity trainings, various professional developments, book studies, affinity groups, equity teams in my school district where we serve about 30,000 students and have about 6,000 employees. I'm also consulting for the Illinois Muslim coalition as their educational task force chair, working on providing curriculum and professional development around numerous laws that they're passing to help increase religious awareness and tolerance for all faiths. In 2020, I was one of the 10 finalists for the Teaching Tolerance Award, which prompted me to start writing articles for Teaching Tolerance, Which we know now is, Learning for Justice.

Rachael Mahmood [00:02:14]:

And when people read my articles, they wanted me to present PD for their schools, which got me really excited and led me to starting my own educational equity consulting company called Equity Teacher Leader. I chose the name equity teacher leader because you don't need a fancy title or a position to be an equity leader. Teachers can be equity leaders right from the position of teaching by just tweaking their curriculum, instruction, and their observations. So, really, for the last 3 years, I've been writing articles. I've been consulting for school districts, presenting at conferences, universities, Writing culturally responsive, socially just curriculum, designing and presenting PD around different topics of educational equity pretty much across the Midwest. And I'm just so honored to do a small part in helping to do this important work in

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:59]:

education. Alright. Well, thank you again. And you know, speaking of your presentations, you know, I was intrigued when I came on your website, and I saw this one in entitled addressing nondominant cultural behavior in the classroom. And I asked you, could we talk about this on the show? Because I don't have any of that. You know, with the 300 episode plus that I have. I did have not talked about this. So, I wanna I wanted to see that if we could have that conversation.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:03:30]:

Now initially, when I heard nondominant, I thought, you know, is she talking about, you know, Nonwhite folks. Is that kinda where the conversation was going? And you explained it a little differently. So I wanna start there. Could you define nondominant cultural behaviors?

Rachael Mahmood [00:03:48]:

Basically, to understand what our nondominant cultural behaviors, we have to Start with how we define culture. Right? So while many people loosely define culture around those categories like food, trust, religion, holidays, language, Those are all surface level observations. For the purposes of this topic, we're gonna use the definitions of deep culture. Deep culture examines markers like a group's communication styles, their motivations to make decisions, their notions of fairness, their definitions of kinship, and whether a group leans towards more individualistic or more communal beliefs or practices. So I'm not sure if you've heard of Hofstede, but he designed the cultural dimensions index. He was a social psychologist, And he evaluated different nationalities and placed them on a continuum from highly individualistic to highly collective. Latin American, African American, Asian, and African cultures tended to be much more collective. Right? And European, Australian, and American cultures were much more individualistic with American culture rating as the highest individualistic culture.

Rachael Mahmood [00:04:56]:

So that means that there are many deeply rooted beliefs in American culture which favor an individualistic mindset. So American schools would in turn favor individualism. So that would be the dominant culture in American schools. Think about it like this. Independent reading, sitting in your seat, work on your work, raise your hand, take turns to share, don't talk over others, You know, focusing on assessments, GPAs. How can you solve that problem by yourself? Class rankings. Help yourself before you help others. You know, pull yourself up through your hard work.

Rachael Mahmood [00:05:31]:

Focus on competition. We need to keep the classroom quiet so students can focus. American schools are filled with so many micro messages that individualism is the right way to do School. If a student's or family's culture matches the school, they will succeed. If their culture does not match the school's culture, they will fail. Therefore, students who come from more individualistic cultures tend to do well in schools because of the cultural congruence between their home culture expectations and their school, while students who come from more collectivist or communal cultures tend to struggle. Now going back to your original assumption, I just wanna caution at this point that we're not saying black students or students of color versus white students. While many African American and African cultures tend to be more communal, there are certainly black students whose families raise their children more aligned with individualistic cultural beliefs.

Rachael Mahmood [00:06:32]:

And chances are those students struggled less in school with the behavior expectations Because there was more congruence between their home culture and their school culture. And there are certainly white students whose families practice more communal practices and beliefs. And chances are they struggled more in school with the school's cultural expectations. And, you know, because Hofstede's cultural index is a spectrum, People can be highly individualistic, moderately individualistic, you know, moderately communal, highly communal, and, Therefore, their struggles and successes in school can vary. So getting back to your original question. If individualistic cultures are the most dominant in schools, Then communal or collectivist cultures are the nondominant cultures in schools that we're talking about. And if every student in your Class or in your school is from a more collectivist or communal culture. Let's say all your students are black or African American and most of them tend to be communal When you observe them, the school, the teachers, and the system still favor individualism.

Rachael Mahmood [00:07:40]:

Therefore, everyone struggles more in schools where educators and school systems and policies are still clinging To individualism models educational models and

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:51]:

practices. Okay. Alright. That that was a mouthful. So thank

Rachael Mahmood [00:07:56]:

you. Did that, like, explain it well?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:07:59]:

Yeah. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was perfect. And and so okay. Now when I think about the individualism, because, you know, I appreciate you for explaining the the communal versus the individualism. I'm glad that we started there.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:08:12]:

It it kinda makes me think about, like, why are our schools set up the way that they are set up? Because based off of that research that you just talked about. I mean, to me, it makes more sense for us to have a conversation, maybe a broader conversation in regards to how do we change our school system to look more communal so that our students can thrive. Now would you recommend things like project based learning, cooperative learning, those type of things as ways, or or is it more on a structural piece that we need to consider as far as how do we shift our individualism into the more the communal strategies.

Rachael Mahmood [00:08:51]:

Well, I think that it's it's all of those things and more. I mean, there's different levels that you have to look at. You have to basically look at school from different tiers. Right? Schools about what we teach, Schools about how we teach, schools about policies and practices. And at every level, we are favoring certain groups of people, Certain cultures of people, certain cultural archetypes like individualistic versus collective in all these different levels. And so it's a multileveled approach to decentering individualism and making space for communalism. It doesn't mean We have to shift and make everything more communal. Right? Because we certainly have students who are succeeding in our current school system and are doing well because their culture matches the expectations of the school.

Rachael Mahmood [00:09:40]:

But what we need to do is Find more balance between communal practices and individualistic practices and together, creating space. So it's not just 1 group is advantaged and another group is disadvantaged at every

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:55]:

turn. Got you. So it's not okay. So it's not one or the other. Is more of the balance you said. Okay. So alright. Well, let's let's get some examples here because I I'm just thinking as far as, like, for for folks that are listening.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:07]:

They're like, oh my gosh. She is blowing my mind right now. This is not something I thought about. I totally didn't think, you know, but this makes so much sense. Let's talk about what are some examples of nondominant cultural behaviors. What could that look like in our classrooms or even in school?

Rachael Mahmood [00:10:25]:

1st, is it okay if we back up and talk a little bit about how to differentiate between a problem behavior and a nondominant behavior?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:10:34]:

Yeah.

Rachael Mahmood [00:10:35]:

Absolutely. Okay. Because I feel like that's kind of where we start the crux. We see a behavior in our class And we think, oh my gosh. What's going on? This is a problem. Right? And so the first thing we really need to do is kind of figure out How to differentiate between what I would say is a problem behavior and a cultural behavior. We certainly don't wanna chalk all behaviors up as cultural behaviors because that's how they do it in their culture. Sounds a lot like deficit thinking.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:11:04]:

It sounds like a lot more than deficit thinking. Right. That's how they do.

Rachael Mahmood [00:11:10]:

So, there are absolutely behaviors that are completely problematic. So I think of it this way. A problem behavior includes Some type of attempt or actual harm done to a person, a student, a teacher, an environment. So students teasing each other or Saying degrading things to a teacher, vandalizing something, bullying. In addition to harm, think about intent. Right? The student is intending harm as well. Those are all problematic behaviors. A cultural behavior is more like a miscommunication.

Rachael Mahmood [00:11:43]:

Right? The student did something that is culturally different than what is expected in that. Think of situational appropriateness. They didn't sit where they were supposed to. They touched something they were not supposed to. They said something at an unexpected time. No harm is done, And no intent to do harm is there. Mhmm. Usually, the intent is some form of social engagement.

Rachael Mahmood [00:12:08]:

They're looking to either engage with a class. They're looking to engage with their teacher. They're looking to engage with their peers. Or even sometimes they're trying to self engage, like they're tapping or making mouth noises or Doing something like that. And I teach 5th grade, so I hear a lot of mouth noises and tapping and, you know, things they're keeping themselves engaged in a lesson. So sometimes teachers see these these behaviors as problematic because it triggers me as a teacher. Right? So the noise is annoying. Oh, I need my class to be quiet during work time.

Rachael Mahmood [00:12:42]:

The shouting out in class makes me feel like I'm not in control of this lesson. What What will the principal think if she comes to my room and a few students are not seated? She may judge my classroom management. So because of our triggers, The problems feel problematic. And, eventually, they become problematic when a student doesn't comply with our school appropriate expectations, and And we as teachers lean in to force compliance versus slow down and have a connection with the student and think about why this behavior could be happening. Right? And so we get into back and forth with the student. Before we know it, we and may have unintentionally created the actual problem behavior. So, you asked about some nondominant Cultural behaviors that tend to be problematic. Okay? So students who need more orality in a lesson may look like they're off task because they're shouting out during independent work time or interrupting others because they're shouting out their opinions on a different topic.

Rachael Mahmood [00:13:45]:

Students from communal cultures need more affirmations and reassurance. They may look like they're not listening when they ask what they're supposed to do on an assignment right after you gave the directions where they're walking around this room asking other students. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? What's up? What'd you got? Students talking to each other on an assignment, and you look over and you say, what are you doing? Why are you Talking to each other, and they say, oh, I'm helping him. And then you look over at the student's paper who's helping and they have nothing written down on their own paper. You might say, oh gosh. How can he help him when he hasn't done anything himself? Most likely, that soon is from a communal culture we're helping supersedes What I've done on my own. A student who takes things from my desk or from the room or from another student's desk may not be stealing. They may have different ideas of personal space or personal ownership or personal belongings as a teacher or another student has.

Rachael Mahmood [00:14:41]:

But what happens is we see a cultural behavior, which is often a neutral behavior, and we give it a negative label Because that is not the way we are supposed to act in school. And as students start to internalize these negative messages that are rooted in their deeply, Like, deep cultural beliefs, which is essentially a negative message towards who they are. They don't see a problem with their behavior because it's it's aligned with their culture and their family. We see a problem with their behavior because it's not aligned with our culture of our school. And then we're taught that good classroom management looks like this. Sit in your desk, raise your hand, listen without interrupting, work on your assignment independently, pass the test without ever questioning why we value those behaviors in our school. We think it's just the way school is instead of understanding how the dominant culture decides what school expected behaviors are. And in this sense, the dominant culture is individualistic in

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:15:40]:

America. Got you. Okay. So what I'm hearing because one of the piece that really stood out was when you talked about how a lot of the behavior that we receive often are our own triggers. So we didn't like someone tapping. Even though let's just say, you know, me thinking back on my special ed background, maybe there's some coping mechanisms that need to take place. Maybe a manipulative needs to happen or some of the fidget spinners or those kind of things. But it might annoy me as a teacher because I'm seeing a child spinning or I see the child, tapping or whatever it might be.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:16:15]:

So What I heard early on was a lot of this is our own triggers that kinda impacts the way we view our classroom management and things like that, which makes me kinda concerned as far as what discipline can look like in our classroom where kids are getting in trouble for essentially being themselves, with no real intent to harm, like you mentioned. However, they get in trouble. I I kinda wanna get your feedback, or what's your thoughts on how this could impact discipline in our

Rachael Mahmood [00:16:47]:

classrooms. Yeah. And not only does it impact discipline, it impacts the over identification of students from communal Cultures is having different learning needs. Right? And so over qualification for IEPs, under qualification for advanced programming or gifted programming, and absolutely more referrals disciplinary referrals being written Because oftentimes, these behaviors start as neutral behaviors. A kid doesn't raise their hand. They keep shouting out instead of saying, oh my gosh. This student needs more orality in my lesson. Maybe I need to be responsive and change the way I'm teaching, I start thinking this kid's got a problem.

Rachael Mahmood [00:17:29]:

He doesn't have self control. He can't control himself. He needs to shout out. I don't think he's a verbal processor. I think he has a problem. So either I'm gonna say, oh gosh. We need to refer him to MTSS Because this kid has impulsivity issues. There's overidentification.

Rachael Mahmood [00:17:46]:

Or I go a different route, and I say, this kid has no respect. How dare he keep interrupting my lesson? How dare he keep jumping in after I've already told him that it's not appropriate, after I've already given him a note, Post it note and told him to check off the number of times he shouts out after I've already put a positive behavior chart in place for him shouting out. And this kid is purposely shouting out in my class. Instead of thinking the student comes from possibly a very oral culture where he needs a lot of verbal processing in order to not only engage himself, but also to process and understand the information he needs to be able to talk. What can I do with the way I'm teaching this lesson right now to help this student have more oral processing opportunities? Because if I don't give them to them, this does Eventually become a problem because I get more frustrated, he gets more frustrated, and nobody's helping anyone.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:18:48]:

Well, can we can we unpack that a little bit more? Because I'm I'm just curious. Like, if I'm a teacher and then because you've mentioned a couple times, like, this Child has a different background or cultural background than maybe me personally. I don't wanna assume. I don't wanna stereotype. How do I find that inform like, how do I learn about what their back like, how do I know that is is a question that because I could I could see my my audience. They're like, okay. I get what she's saying, but how do you pry? How do you ask those kind of questions? Or at least Where do you where would you go to get this information so that you're not stereotyping or or, again, implicit bias, whatever it is. How do we how do we control that?

Rachael Mahmood [00:19:32]:

Absolutely. That's a great question. And I don't want people deferring to some type of bias or cultural bias. Like, again, In their culture or this race of students or these people

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:43]:

Right.

Rachael Mahmood [00:19:43]:

You know, have these behaviors. Right? And so the first thing that we really need to do is we need to be acute observers of our students. The best way to collect information about a student is to sit back and watch that student. When we sit back and look at our students and we study their behaviors without jumping in and automatically being upset and automatically being triggered, We start to learn about who they are and how they're processing information. Let's say we're going with the shouting out example. It's a common thing that triggers a lot of teachers. And I hear it a lot when I present to schools. What about that kid who keeps shouting out? Right? What about that kid who keeps wandering around? My question often becomes, when are they shouting out? Why are they shouting out? What are they saying when they're shouting out? Have you built in more time? Are they shouting out even when it's like a small group activity? Are they shouting out when they have lots of chances to verbally process? What happens if you allow them to shout out? What if you give them something to shout out that they're always allowed to shout out? That's something that I do with my students who are highly oral.

Rachael Mahmood [00:20:50]:

I have a list of positive affirmations on my board that anyone in my classroom is allowed to shout out anytime they feel the need to say something. You wanna yell something out? Say good job. Say I believe in you. Say that's right. I agree. We'll take all the positive affirmations that we can get.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:21:11]:

Right? While you're

Rachael Mahmood [00:21:12]:

bored? That's on my board. I we make a list. The beginning of the year, during morning meeting times, what are things that you're always allowed to shout out? Something else my students are always allowed to shout out, figurative language. They can if I use, like, any type of figurative language, they're allowed to just say, simile, metaphor. Those are things that we've I've built into our classroom. Like, if you feel the need to say something, if I'm reading a book and there's a simile, my whole class will be like, Similar. You know? And I just keep breathing. If I use a figure of speech when I'm trying to explain something, the kids will be like, metaphor, Personification.

Rachael Mahmood [00:21:51]:

They're always allowed to shout out certain things. We build the structures into our classroom. When we observe students, We start to see patterns. Now if you work in a school like I do, where there's a lot of communal students, students from communal cultures and I know it Because everybody is shouting out. Because everybody wants to talk. Because everybody wants to share. Because everybody has got lots of stories and All these different markers that these people ahead of me have said are characteristics of communal learners. I start to see why I have a lot of patterns here.

Rachael Mahmood [00:22:24]:

So what does that mean? It means I gotta change the way I teach. Can't be culturally responsive without being responsive. So if I observe something, I gotta make sure that my instruction or my curriculum then allows space for it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:40]:

Got you. Okay. Okay. And I'm glad you brought up the example about, You know, that sounds actually kind of fun. Like, I wanna be in your class and and just I I just wanna observe, just see the kids just yelling out simile and and metaphor.

Rachael Mahmood [00:22:53]:

You are welcome anytime.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:55]:

That sounds dope. So okay. Okay. Alright. So here here's the thing. So you've explained what nondominant cultural behaviors look like. And you I loved how you shared. You know, this could be an individual thing.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:06]:

It could be a communal, but it's not one or the other. It's more on the balance is what we're really looking for. You you've addressed what some of the the different behaviors could look like and how they could be misperceived. And I love how you explain the importance or how we can go about understanding a student's background without stereotyping them or creating those biases. Oh, those people. You know how those people are. I'm so glad that you explained all of that. Thank you so much for that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:23:39]:

So let's let's let's get into some some more strategies if you have some more, strategy as far as what teachers should do to maybe address any more of those nondominant cultural behaviors that you might be able to share with us.

Rachael Mahmood [00:23:53]:

I'm gonna do a shameless plug here. I'm sorry, doctor Akins. This is gonna be a quick one. So I've developed a framework. It's called Serve, Verve, and Observe. Observe. And I just wanna start with that because I really I I mean, I developed it because I believe in it and I practice it, and it leads us right into what we can do. So the PD that I offer district is mostly organized around this framework of serve, verve, and observe.

Rachael Mahmood [00:24:20]:

Serve stands for the lessons that we serve students. What we teach students needs to reflect and validate students' identity While also exposing them to identities that are different from themselves, build empathy, and understanding. K? Verb is kinda where we get into what you are asking. Verb stands for creating a variable environment. Right? From the wonderful work of Zaretta Hammond and others, We've learned that culture influences the way our brains process information. So the way we deliver instruction needs to be varied so that Both students from individualistic and communal cultural learning styles are met. So having more verve in your classroom, more variability, Opportunities for shout out, opportunities for movement, changing things up, moving away from Madeline Hunter, like you said, Having problem based learning, have self directed experience. Diversifying our instruction is going to Pull students in, especially students from communal cultures doing things like Hammond talks about, storifying, gamifying, having a variety of instructional strategies.

Rachael Mahmood [00:25:24]:

Right? And then the last part, observe, is what we were just talking about. Observing is the key to being responsive. You can have tons of little instructional ideas in your pocket. You can build in the background and incorporate all these histories, cultures, and social justice into your curriculum, But it means nothing without responsiveness. So studying our students. When teachers observe our own cultural proficiency, our own bias, our own triggers as we're saying in this conversation, but also observe our students, not just their backgrounds or where they come from, but also how they learn, How they communicate, how they engage, their behaviors, their learning styles. Those observations can shape our curriculum, our instruction, and our classroom management. So that is just, you know, so key that observation piece.

Rachael Mahmood [00:26:16]:

So, of Of course, my very first step for educators to do when dealing with behaviors is slow down and observe. This is probably a great piece of advice for our Higher profession of education. Slow down. Slow down. It seems like most days, we're making millions of decisions, and we are making these decisions so quickly. It's easy for our brain to default to cultural bias, unconscious bias. Right? Like, I'm in the middle of teaching. I see a kid standing up.

Rachael Mahmood [00:26:45]:

My initial reaction, like, probably everyone else's, what are you doing? Sit down. Why are you standing up? You wanna just, like, say something. But I hold my breath. I watch that student as he walks towards a tissue box, grabs a tissue, blows his nose, throws the tissue in the garbage, and sips back down again. I could've immediately reacted and been like, why are you up? Why are you out of your seat? What's going on here? And instead of just slowing down, I saw the student was doing an expected behavior, and it was okay. My first suggestion is to slow down. 2, observe the behavior from a neutral stance. Oftentimes, we see something expected and we jump from that's not expected, that's negative.

Rachael Mahmood [00:27:30]:

So we need to back up and say, instead of assigning a positive or negative value something, Just observe it as neutral. I see a student shouting out. The student is shouting out. It's not bad. It's not good. It's not nothing. It's simply a piece of data in my observations that will help me later on in helping the student. You with me?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:51]:

Yeah. I'm

Rachael Mahmood [00:27:52]:

there. Alright. Then I think about how culture could play into this scenario. So I'm like, okay. Slow down. I was thinking this is a neutral behavior. Could this be a cultural thing? So I kinda think back. I check my own cultural understanding, my own cultural proficiency.

Rachael Mahmood [00:28:08]:

Could the student be trying to communicate something to me in a way that I'm not used to seeing it communicated. Is a student having a need for something? Like, I just passed out a paper And I explained the directions, and then one of my students goes, what are we supposed to do now? I could be annoyed, and I could say, you know what? For Punishment, I'm not gonna tell you what we're gonna do now. You just gotta sit there and figure it out. That's individualistic. Yeah. Right? Figure it out on your own because I already explained the directions once. Or I could say, okay. Does this student need a lot of reassurance and affirmation before they get started.

Rachael Mahmood [00:28:43]:

Are they, like, almost asking just to make sure that they understand? Like, what is the harm And me saying it one more time. What is the harm in choosing somebody to be the direction repeater? What is the harm in a student really wanting to clarify That they understand the directions. There is no harm in that. So now you're quoting sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:04]:

So can I can I ask you a question?

Rachael Mahmood [00:29:06]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:08]:

How do we know if a student is testing us? Like or are they legit? This is, like you said, a neutral thing, or or is this could be an opportunity for a kid. You know? I I you know, I'm I'm a I'm just having one of those days. I just wanna mess around with my teacher, and I want to pretend like I didn't hear what they said, or I wanna just kinda cause just a little bit of ruckus just because that's just what I'm that's the kind of mood I'm in. How how do we determine whether or not this is a a legitimate best intentions type of situation versus a child that is actually trying to test us.

Rachael Mahmood [00:29:46]:

I think we go back to, again, observe. I mean, for me personally, I never try to think that a student's intent is to annoy me or to do harm in my classroom. Mhmm. I Really hope that I've created a classroom environment where their intent is not to drive me crazy on purpose. So when I hear stuff like that, my initial reaction is probably the same as everybody else. It's annoyance at first Mhmm. Because I have a 1000000 things going on. But that's what stops me from defaulting to my implicit bias, right, or into my triggers is that I slow down, and I tell myself this student could sincerely be asking Because they need that extra layer of reassurance or affirmation.

Rachael Mahmood [00:30:30]:

I don't have to think of this as a negative thing that they weren't paying attention. The more times you do that, Sheldon, the more times you build a a community of trust in your classroom. Even if the kid was trying to poke at me a little bit and I come back to them with a sincere and loving response. They're caught off guard. They're used to getting the SaaS back, and I'm not gonna give it to them. I'm gonna say, you know, that's so great that you wanna clarify the directions. We need more students who are responsible like Sheldon that are asking to clarify the directions. Thank you for clarifying before getting started.

Rachael Mahmood [00:31:07]:

I'm sure there's other people that had the exact same question as you, and you were brave enough to say that you didn't understand the first time. And that kinda gets to what my next layer is. So after I think about this could be a cultural thing, I think about how I can use this behavior in favor of the student. So I think to myself, what can I do to make this often perceived negative behavior Positive and useful to the student? So if it's something like clarifying directions, I just made him a leader by saying what I did by responding the way I did. Now he's the student who's willing to clarify for everybody. I'm sure there's other students who were scared to ask, but you were brave. And you said, you know what? I missed it. Whether I was off task or my brain was somewhere else or I just needed to hear it one more time, thank you for asking what the directions were a 2nd time.

Rachael Mahmood [00:32:02]:

Now that student has been affirmed in a way that changes the way they see themselves as a student. Thank you so much for shouting out the answer. Your passion for this topic is amazing.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:32:15]:

Not we're not saying this with sarcasm.

Rachael Mahmood [00:32:17]:

Right? Absolutely not. Okay. Okay. If we say it with sarcasm, then we defeat the purpose of Creating the culture where the students' behaviors are truly valued and can be used as an asset. Okay. No. But, You know, we see a kid that's wandering around. We're, like, he's wagging around.

Rachael Mahmood [00:32:35]:

He's saying, you know, like, what'd you get? What'd you get? He's checking with other students. He won't sit down and do his work or she. I keep saying he. She. Whoever it is. Right? And I look at that student, and I give them the answer key and a pen. And I say, Go and check everyone's paper. Now they're walking around saying, what'd you get? What'd you get? What'd you get? With purpose.

Rachael Mahmood [00:32:57]:

Now they're a leader. You better believe that all the times I've done this, the first thing they do after they check 5 papers is go sit down and write down the first 5 answers. Now I just got them to do 5 problems when I could have been spending 20 minutes getting them to even start the page. Now they're a leader. They got all the affirmations and reassurance. They got all the models from their students, peers that I wasn't gonna give to the whole class. And we use that behavior, that wandering off task, talking, checking with students as a positive thing. And we turned them around, and we got them right back to work.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:33:35]:

Wow. I love I I love this, and and I will say You've taught me a lot about patience. I think that that's why I can't do elementary because that takes a lot of patience, and and I and I Thank you so much for taking the time to explain these things. You know? I my first thought when you were talking about, you know, telling a student, you know, well, thank you for yelling out loud. I could just see myself in the classroom, just just sarcastic as hell. So so I just that's why I wanted to to make sure that we're making sure that we're emphasizing. No. This is, like, genuinely, authentically recognizing, taking that time to pause, reflect, or observe, and be able to watch what their behaviors are and have the best intentions for that child and assume that, you know, they're not trying to create any sort of malice or get on our nerves or testing us any of those kind of things.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:34:30]:

They are just legitimately looking to to you know, maybe they need to move around. Maybe whatever it might be, but we're actually as a value valuing them as individuals. So I appreciate you for saying all that.

Rachael Mahmood [00:34:43]:

Absolutely. And that comes back to what you were saying at the beginning about, like, what do we do about Schools, about policies, practices, all of these things. We gotta look at our classroom management policies. We gotta look at our class rules. What do we favor? Do we favor just sitting in your desk, listening quietly? What does our school's policies favor? Are we explaining expectations, behavior expectations to students before we assuming that they know that their expectations are the same as ours. Are we punishing students for just Having a different understanding of expectations. And sometimes, absolutely, they need to follow the school wide expectations even if they are individualistic, even if they are hard for students. But how do we help them code switch? How do we help them understand situational appropriateness from a place of love, from a place of, like, I get you.

Rachael Mahmood [00:35:34]:

I understand you. I see you. I see it's hard for you to raise your hand right now because you got so much passion to share right now on this topic. So we're gonna work together. Sometimes I'm gonna need you to raise your hand. Sometimes there's gonna be time to shout out, but I'm willing to work with you and move back and forth between opportunities to shout out and opportunities to raise your hand. And those honest conversations, that collaborative problem solving with students, that validation of who they are Naturally as a person instead of them always fighting against their instinctual deep cultural behaviors Give space and acceptance and make space for those students, right, in your classroom, in your school, You know, and also helps your relationships with them.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:36:20]:

Loving it. Well, listen, Rachel, I I will say this. I I definitely consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. You've taught me a lot, again, like I said, about patience, and and I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I'd love for you to share With us, any final words of advice to our listeners?

Rachael Mahmood [00:36:37]:

The best advice I could give in this scenario is that when you're thinking about behavior and you're thinking about your Students, you know, think about intentions. If you really come from a place of love in your classroom and in your school and in your practice And you think that students are genuinely interested wanting to learn, wanting to be accepted, wanting to be heard, wanting to be validated. And we come to our classroom management practices from a place where we are sincerely trying to work with students And help them to understand, you know, expectations in our school, but also not to always be against their own deep cultural understandings of communication. We can find that classroom management becomes actually a lot easier is we let go of some of the things that we've historically held on to because schools have told us that that's the way it's supposed to be. We make some space for us to breathe, for our students to breathe, and we just develop more caring environments for our students to be successful in.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:37:42]:

There we go. Well, if we got some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Rachael Mahmood [00:37:48]:

You can connect with me on my website atwww.equityteacherleader.com. There's a contact page

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:37:55]:

on there. Alright. And we'll leave a link in the show notes, folks, so you can get in touch with doctor Mahmood. Rachel, it has truly been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Rachael Mahmood [00:38:05]:

Thank you so much.

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