Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:00]:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Eakins equity podcast. A podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today's special guest is Mister Reed SARS. So without further ado, Reed, thank you so much for joining us today.

Reid Saaris [00:00:19]:

Yeah. Great to be here. Thanks, Sheldon, for having me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:00:22]:

Pleasure is mine. I'm I'm excited for today's topic. You have an upcoming book entitled the kid across the hall. And that's actually coming out tomorrow. So I'm really excited for that, and folks will lead a link in the show notes so you can grab your copy, make sure you support. But before we get into today's topic read, I'd love for you to share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Reid Saaris [00:00:44]:

Sure. Absolutely. Been working on this book for about 16 years since I was a teacher, in South Carolina, and the motivation for my whole career has been my experiences with my best friend when I was sent off on a different path from him for no good reason. and started to get really interested in how do we fix that in our schools. So did that as a teacher and an administrator then ran a nonprofit that I started for about 10 years called Equal Opportunity Schools. Recently left that to work on the book and, been Eakins on a mental health crisis, work recently as well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:01:17]:

Wait. So now you said that there is the inspiration was behind your best friend. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Reid Saaris [00:01:24]:

Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So Jamie and I did everything together until we got to this point in high school when kids get sent off on different paths for no good reason. And my mom was a career school counselor and said, read right this way to get ready for college. Jamie's mom had never attended high school, and it was a single mom raising 5 kids. and didn't have the time to help him navigate and figure out a bureaucratic system she'd never even been part of. And so the experience for me was going to school literally just across the hall from Jamie, getting a radically different education that prepared me for Harvard and Stanford and all sorts of cool things in my life. while he was coloring in dittos and things like that on the other side of the hall, just 20 feet away from me.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:02:06]:

Just 20 feet away. And so here we are. So okay. I have more questions, but I want folks to read the book. I I plan to read the book as well. So we don't wanna give out the spoilers, but that sounds like a very interesting story. And and the trajectory that you're in right now and, you know, how that has brought you to your family and and and your views on education. And so you did a lot of research and talked about how there are, you know, challenges between or disparities rather between our students of color and also our low income our students with limited income when it comes to preparation for college, give us a little bit of, I don't know, maybe abstract, if you will, in regards to what you have discovered.

Reid Saaris [00:02:51]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So the, as a teacher, I basically ran into a student that reminded me of Jamie and realized then that I had the power to say, well, let's go change your schedule if you wanna do it, and let's actually make these opportunities happen. which is really exciting to me. He did well in the classes, and not only, you know, by himself, but made the classes better for everyone else So when I got promoted to an administrative role the next, year, I started to say, well, how big are these gaps here? Why are there so many black students in that school, in particular, low income students who are missing from AP and IB classes. And we started to look through all the data, and I got really excited about that data at the 1 school, and really started to frame it in terms of what we called missing students. So we said there's a lot of kids missing based on these race and income access gaps. How do we understand that? How do we measure that? And how do we close those gaps? And so at that school, we were able to, I met with every 10th grader and their family, and we were able to close the gaps, in a single year. And I think the thing that was so exciting to me that motivated me to launch my nonprofit equal opportunity schools was the fact that when you close those gaps, we saw the success on the APNIB test go up. Whereas the fear scenario for people was, hey, this is gonna be a disaster. Kids can't handle it. you're gonna ruin the program for everyone else and these sorts of things. So it whenever we get that sort of data back, which has now happened We've worked with a 1000 school and district leaders across more than 30 states on on doing this sort of work of finding missing students. And every time you get those sort of results back, it's a mixed thing for me. I'm excited for the kids, but I'm also devastated that this notion of missing students is is spot on literally just across the hall from the education they need and deserve if we can start to think differently about the opportunities that we provide in our schools. So We we did a paper nationally with the education trust. It was about 2 thirds of a million kids a year in this position of being across the hall. It's grown as APNIB programs have expanded and the the student body in the US has diversified. So now about 800,000 juniors and seniors every year, black Latino low income native students who would be in those college level courses if they were included at the same rates as their peers in the school.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:15]:

You're blowing my mind. Where'd you go? You're blowing my mind. And I'm I'm taking no because as I'm listening to what you're saying, like, literally, you have students in the same school, literally across the hall. 20 feet away from each other. They're gonna have different experiences, especially when it comes to college and not just college, but preparation for college. Right?

Reid Saaris [00:05:36]:

because I

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:05:36]:

know there's, you know, I work for trio for years. Yep. And the thing about trio is, you know, we get them to college and, you know, we'll provide them with college tours and scholarships ship information, help them fill out their financial aid FAFSA and all that. However, if they're not being challenged in their class rooms or if they're not taking those APN. We encouraged our students to take AP classes on, there's dual enrollments and all those things, but it's still a a transition from high school to college.

Reid Saaris [00:06:04]:

Yes.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:06:04]:

Right. And there's still gonna be some level of privilege with their peers. Like you said, their classmates, their their neighbors, their locker mates are gonna have a different experience based off of maybe their background and maybe their parents might have experiences in college and those Eakins of things. It's all that plays such a factor. So I wanna talk about privilege in Again, same school, you know, but different scenarios or different outcomes with students. What type of things are mentioned within your book or or even in your own experience, however you wanna start when it comes to privilege and how that impacts college.

Reid Saaris [00:06:38]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I was really focused for many years, 10 years about running equal opportunity schools on how I could get educators to think differently about the opportunities that they provided. And I think it it it was exciting work and Yeah. For for a lot of people, it made a huge difference, but the the privilege point is one that that came much later for me in the journey because We built an incredibly diverse team at equal opportunity schools. There may be 80, 80, or 90 staff there now working all across the country. I had surrounded myself with incredibly diverse, incredibly talented education professionals. and they were committed not only to helping our partners, you know, principals and superintendents learn about these issues, but even to help their CEO figure out these things that I probably should have learned a long time ago, but as a result of the type of system that I came up through, I had a relatively segregated education. Right? And so I think that's the other side of the coin that I didn't appreciate early on. which was I was saying, oh, we gotta get Jamie into these classes because it's gonna be great for Jamie. And what I experienced with Jim in South Carolina when I was teaching was Oh, it's great for other people and other students in the class, and it took me quite a while to start to realize my own blind spots. of coming up through this system. And so I didn't get to go to class with Jamie and other students like him, then come college, even with affirmative action and all these other pieces in place, really severely underrepresented for students from a lot of background. So I'm, again, in a relatively segregated environment. got to go to to, Stanford and you show up there, I I did actually missing numbers there. I was like, they're missing dozens of women in this class. There would be two times as many people of color from the US if they close these gaps. But what happens when you get there? is they say, anybody, you know, raise your hand if you think maybe there's a mistake in letting you in because we got Olympians. We got, you know, all sorts of great, you know, leaders of cabinets of different countries who are here with us. Raise your hand if you think maybe you don't belong here. And most everybody raise their hand and they say, no. No. We have great system. We picked you because you're amazing, but that class and incoming class did not represent or look like America. And so I got all these messages from white male professors then who would say, here's our case studies of Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, as great examples of leadership. Right? And so we're going on through these things. And I got all this great funding and raised raised this money and think I'm thinking, man, I am amazing. I got it figured out. and I didn't have it figured out. And that's where even the first person to join me on the team, at EOS, had a radically different set of experiences from me, and it took me almost 8 years of working with her to really start to let those things settle in from the broader conversation about privilege to my own privilege and how do I enter into those conversations and really realize what I'm missing out on instead of just telling other educators, hey. You're missing students here, why don't we find them?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:09:48]:

So do you feel like you're maybe oblivious just because of your, like, just something you never really had to consider or think about. Is that is that the kind of because you said it took you about 8 years. Yeah. Like, no. I guess my my question is, When did that light switch, or what was it that made that light switch go off and you started looking at it from a different perspective?

Reid Saaris [00:10:10]:

Yeah. That's a great question. It it was a accumulation of things, I give one example here, I went out to, big training for one of the biggest school districts in the country. we're pulling together educators. We're talking about this stuff. And I'm just, you know, coming along as the CEO. Hey, how's what are they building in the field here? What's the staff doing? This is amazing. You know, it's really exciting. And one of the activities was you have beads in front of you of all different colors. And one of the early people to join the team, you know, leading this department in whole area of the work is facilitating this activity. She's she's an absolute, you know, incredible leader in developing people's insights and and helping them to to learn in their learning journeys. Right? And so take a bag out if the students in your class when you're growing up were the same race as you, you know, at at at or with the race of most of the kids in your class when you're growing right? Take a bead that represents the race of the teachers that you had for the most part when you're growing up. Take a bead for the end. You started going through your life and she's pulling all these things. And, you know, your friend group, you're this, you're that the other, and you're filling up your bag. And me and some of the other white educators at my table started you know, putting your bag a little bit under the table. You know, if you'll see wait. I don't I'm no I'm not bringing a a diverse perspective from my experience I may be at this table because I care about those issues, and I wanna work on that. And I wanna advocate for that, and I wanna do all sorts of things. but I think it's really, really hard to take it to the personal level. I just think especially in education, the stakes are high People are not in this for the money. They're in this often. They wanna do the right thing. And if you if you come to them and say, well, you don't really you're not really seeing this the right way or you're letting some kids down or you're leaving some kids out, that's a really hard message. And so a lot of the work of EOS was really focused externally, which is the easiest way to to do on these issues. And we would say, how exactly is this superintendent gonna start to think differently about what's possible. They have the ability to close these gaps this year and have a 1000 more kids access the learning opportunities they need and deserve. but something's a blocker in there, but I can't go straight at it with them because if I do, the the, you know, stiff arming and get me out the door pretty quick. So we would go through a lot of those things. And I just I I got to be, and was lucky enough to be on the learning journey with the incredible team that we had that was so good at this, so patient, and we would go through activity after activity like this, And it really wasn't even, I would say, until I left the organization as CEO and started to work on this book, that it started to add up and and click in my mind because I have the best intentions, and I'm a professional and seen as an expert in these issues. but I would just emphasize, maybe other people can relate to this when it comes to applying it to yourself and saying maybe you did got it wrong. Maybe you let people down. That is really hard compared to look at how the system's messing this up. Look at how these other people are doing it wrong, and so that that was a part of my journey.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:13:22]:

Thank you for your vulnerability, by the way, and and humility and and just admitting, you know, hey. Listen. There were some things that I I just didn't know. and, you know, best intentions, but it's sometimes it takes whenever I so so me personally, whenever I do training, who with groups, organizations, schools, district. We always start with self awareness because, I can't tell you how many times I've entered into spaces where, you know, staff will feel like, you know, oh, Not us. You know, we'll, you know, I I don't have privilege or I don't have this or I don't have that. I'm not biased on blah blah blah. And and so I think if we start there, then that's really what the work is because just like you said, it's very easy for me to point out to someone else. Yes. You were wrong. You made this mistake. You did this. You did that. It's very easy for us to do those things, but then sometimes it's harder for us to have accountability on ourselves. Me as a trainer, I tell people I say, look, I have Biasys. I have privilege as well. You know, I think we all have some form of privilege some of us have more privilege than others, but we all have privileges out there. And that's very important for us to be mindful of those privileges and how it impacts decisions that we make, the support that we provide to our students and things like that. But here's the piece. because as you mentioned, that activity that you did where you're pulling out the various color beads and you're looking at your your colleagues and you're like, oh my gosh. Now we're starting to hide, you know, we're starting to hide those beads a little bit. And, you know, we're not pulling them out as fast. Maybe we're looking under you know, Whatever we're doing, there's a feeling there's some emotions that are going to be triggered with these type of activities. And again, thinking about our self awareness, So I guess, how did you feel? Like, because I know some folks will feel, and I I reason why I'm asking this question is because, you know, there's a lot of know, with all the the political controversies in regards to diversity, Eakins, inclusion type of work, that's the big piece to it. It's like, oh, you're not supposed to do trainings. that's going to make individuals feel bad or hate America and all those Eakins of things. So I'm just curious on your end that type of activity, how did it make you feel when when you kinda had that self discovery?

Reid Saaris [00:15:34]:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'll be really, really vulnerable here. and turn because, you know, what's the point of all this work we do if we can't learn and grow in the process that we are professional educators Right? And so, again, it took me stepping back and writing the book and and really reflecting to to get to some of this stuff, but I might as well share it otherwise the point of going through? I mean, we stand for education. That's what we do as educators. So after the beads activity, I it was my turn to speak on stage. and I put the beads in my pocket, and I forgot about the beads, and I told them how much I understood about how they needed to change their practices in their So I didn't I didn't internal. That that's something that came up, and there's there's a few stories this in the book of It is easy to defend away and just move on and and a huge part of privilege in my experience is the privilege to ignore the issue that we're talking about. That is the one of the biggest ones you you have, I think. And so we had another activity. We had like a privilege walk, and it was, you know, I got to see the separation between me and so many of my colleagues laid out across the the room, right, and the sun's coming in. And and all these people that I care about, and I work with, and we work so hard together, spread out a great distance from each other based on different life experiences that the facilitator was talking about. And I I look back and I, you know, I hear from my colleagues and I, you know, and then I'm like, this is clicking for me. I understand this. I need to I need to take a different perspective. It doesn't just happen that I'm the CEO, and I happen to be the farthest across the room in this. Before I think that's I honestly, what I thought, oh, yeah. I'm the CEO at the startup, and we got all this praise all this money and all this stuff. And it just happens that, you know, these other factors align in my favor. I saw it laid out across the room, and I said, ah, I I finally get it. And then at the end of the day, you know, it took so much out of me and and many colleagues and stuff. I went home and I I watched a bunch of Netflix, and I would say I probably forgot about it again. And so there's multiple fails on my part and multiple opportunities for me to step into that learning, but it's so challenging to do that. that I think, you know, the a culminating piece for me comes up in the book. Really, the click came when I was in my best friend's living room Eakins about these issues.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:17:53]:

Mhmm.

Reid Saaris [00:17:53]:

And there and there's and it's the most comfortable space and environment with somebody who knows and understands me, And it's all of the learning space that was created before that that made it possible for me to really start to be vulnerable. And and he was telling me he he became a a teacher, of underserved kids himself. And basically, he's telling me about how some of the aspects of racism are playing out in his own practice as an educator. And I'm I'm listening to him talk about this, and I'm saying Oh, there's nobody around listening to you. And you're okay. Nobody can hear you as you're saying these things. He's like, oh, yeah. I tell my classes at the start of class. And I'm like, you what? and he says, yeah. Yeah. I mean, read, you you gotta understand. Like, we live in a system that that does these things all around us, and you can't think that you escaped that yourself or, you know, you're you may be doing great things in the world, but you don't rise above that system and not have that be a part of you. you're pickled in it yourself, and and as soon as we can start to acknowledge that, the sooner we can do things about it. And so that was the safe space that I sort of try to say, okay. If Jamie can talk about this and think about this, I can I can really open myself to it, and I'm gonna I'm gonna figure it out better. and that's what I tried to do in in putting together this book and really thinking through what, you know, what it all adds too.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:11]:

There we go. Yeah. Yeah. And, again, appreciate what you're saying. You know, I call it the irony, privilege. The privilege of forget being able to forget about privilege.

Reid Saaris [00:19:23]:

Yep.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:23]:

and and and it's I mean, I've done this too. Right? You know, I I I watch news. I see something happen and I it doesn't impact me, you know, personally. you know, maybe it's a gender issue or maybe something l lgbt like, something that doesn't necessarily impact me personally Yep. And and so, yeah, I'm in the moment. I've I've had those opportunities. I was like, oh, man. I'm in the moment, and this is wrong. Blah blah blah. And then after I leave that space or I leave that situation, and then I forget about it.

Reid Saaris [00:19:55]:

Yep.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:19:55]:

And and so that and so so we we all do it. and and I appreciate you for for acknowledging and recognizing that. So I guess the question that I have is based off of that self discovery based off of the work that you've been doing or your research book and everything, what are some things that we can do in regards to privilege, especially as we're thinking about the audience as educators, those who are gonna be in front of Eakins, and what are some main suggestions or strategies that you can provide to those who are listening out there.

Reid Saaris [00:20:24]:

I think you have to spend time across difference. This is what some of the several of the facilitators taught me you just have to be in real relationship, and that's where that bead activities and other things was. It's like if I got a if I got a bag full of white beads, and she was like, and when we were trying to hide it, she's such a great facilitator. She said, alright. Now let's hold our beads up in front of our eyes. So you could, like, this is the lens that you're looking through sitting there at the table. Like, wait a minute. I gotta put people are gonna see what this bag looks like and what my experiences and perspective are based on, to some extent, that saving grace for me was the the incredibly talented and diverse team that I got to be a part of in building equal opportunity school. So I would say whenever and wherever you can build real authentic relationships across difference, that's gonna be an incredible thing. And then as an educator in the classroom, to me, the notion I always came back to was missing students. Do I assume that these gaps in opportunity exist because there's something wrong with the student or because there's something wrong with the system and how I as an educator or an administrator are are looking at this system. And I think I always really wanted to come down on the side of They're missing because we as educators are are misunderstanding the talent and capabilities here. And so the push of equo opportunity schools to to get really tech article about it was let's let's figure out why these gaps exist. Let's ask the students. Let's ask the teachers. Let's look at the data, and then let's close the gap. and often schools would close that gap in a single year, and you wouldn't have the issue that you you have sometimes of we really paid attention to this, and we recruited a couple students. And this, and then the student maybe felt ended up feeling isolated. And then people are saying, oh, well, you know, they they seem all nervous. They're not doing that well in the class. It it was silly to try to, you know, think that we could close these gaps in high school. You gotta start or preschool or something like that. So they would have sort of have this story. We'd say, no, give the full set of opportunities across the board. It's different than with college admissions and things. You can just grow the program, add more seats, get more people involved, and and create those opportunities. So I would say you know, the implications of some of these pieces around, you know, what you believe about students should show up in their representation in all sorts of programs across the school and and create those equal opportunities for Eakins. And I think you'll be excited and amazed every time, if you can attend to that.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:22:49]:

Absolutely. and I a 100% agree. The only thing I would add to that is it's really we have to recognize and acknowledge that there are privileges. It I mean, I can't tell you how many times people will fight me on that because they hear privilege. They automatically just go white privilege. I'm like, dude, there's there's a bunch of different privileges out there, but some people get so defensive when they hear the word privilege I don't remember where I was. I was doing a training, and I just they told me don't say privilege. And I'm like, why am I here? Like, why are you Why you bring me out here? because I'm like, dude, I I have privilege. Like, I have PhD. I'm an entrepreneur. I have male. I mean, it's English is my first language. There's so many different things that I feel like I I I have when it comes to privileges, but they just I mean, they're so afraid of leery that it's such a trigger word but I I think starting there is saying, you know what? We acknowledge that there are some pro some students are more privileged than others. there's systems that are set up that are gonna publish. You know, having that acknowledgement first and then doing that work like you mentioned, to to really rebuild. So, I mean, sometimes, some school systems and settings, but we're talking about generational challenges. People think that those results are gonna happen overnight. And it's like, no. It's gonna take time for those changes to to take place. So thank you for that.

Reid Saaris [00:24:11]:

Yeah. And how how do you think about that? That you know, this idea of, well, that word's gonna set them off so don't use it. And I can see both sides, right, because if you really want somebody to learn, it'll make you real comfortable, but the learning is the is the discomfort. And so it's this mix of those 2. And so, yeah, how do you think about if people are like, you know, can you approach this in this other way or not use these words sort of a thing.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:24:33]:

Well, that's that's that's the thing about the privilege. Right? Again, going back to the irony, a privilege. If we're saying that we're focused on someone's comfort level, then you are perpetuating privilege. So I I I to me, I I'm like, why am I here? Like, if we're in a situation where we're like, you know what? We want to make some changes. We we recognize that equity is a challenge that we have at our school. to me, yeah, I I believe in the process, so I'm not gonna give you, very abrasive type of trainings. However, I do think it's very important that we recognize things, and there are words that are out there. I mean, we could sit there and battle semantics all we want. But again, the privilege of saying, you know what? I wanna come to this session and and sit in my comfortable chair and be able to listen to something, and I can choose whether or not I'm going to the privilege. I have the privilege to choose whether or not I'm gonna implement whatever doctor Eakins are or read a saying to us that's that's my proves. That's my choice. And and that's what I'm saying. It the irony of the whole premise behind the session or this change that we need to have has it's riddled with privilege. So I we have again, we have to acknowledge it first. And then once we acknowledge it first, then we can move past.

Reid Saaris [00:25:51]:

Yeah. It makes me think of the first time I ever wrote anything about missing students. I put together a report for the superintendent in the district in South Carolina. I brought it down to her. Mhmm. And she was Eakins the position that you're talking about of not acknowledging that that of people not acknowledge. She she scanned this paper. I had counted every missing student in the school. I was like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna talk to community. We're gonna talk to the teachers. We're gonna talk to school board. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna get after these, you know, get these opportunities out there for everyone. She took my report, and she put it in the drawer, and she closed it up. And she said, you're not gonna share that report with anybody until If you wanna go out and try to close the gap, that's great. But we need, good news for this program, and this is bad news for that program. And so her notion was And I've seen it work in some cases. I guess it depends on the context was, you know, do the work and then talk about the success and acknowledge the issues that we've solved versus talking about them when they're unsolved. And and that there were some people on on our team who talked about, you know, even like Little Rock Central High School. The last time I looked, they have about 500, missing students from AP classes. So they were integrated as a school, but not at the classroom level. Right? And so there's radical differences within that school building. and you have the national guard escorting people in through the front door to integrate this school. And some of the some of the leaders on our team said, what if we go in the back door, and we don't make a big fuss about it, and we get some work done, and then we talk about the success and this sort of thing. And and it's yeah, from from South Carolina to Seattle radically different sort of audience readiness and ability to sort of engage on those things in different ways.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:27:36]:

You know, I honestly, I'm okay with eitheror as long as the work happens. Yes. You know, it's Eakins like I was It's like, if you ask me, Rita, like, hey. I'm new in town visiting Pocatella, Idaho, and I need to get some directions to the university. How do I get there? And if I just told you, take this road, make a left, go to 3 more blocks and you'll be at the university versus someone else that says, you know what? They know that there's some construction in this one straight like, folks will give you 222 or 3 different directions on how to get to one location as long as your destination happens, as long as you get to the to the university or wherever you're headed, to me, it's fine. Yes. But when we start seeing those roadblocks such as, oh, we don't have a problem or we can't use certain words or, you know, everybody needs to be on board. Whenever those roadblocks start to happen and the work hit, like, it it repeats the progress. That's the problem that I have. So as long as we get there, I'm okay to either.

Reid Saaris [00:28:36]:

Yes. Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:28:38]:

Read, listen. I I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and I'm I'm really excited about your book. and and so, I mean, just just to kinda the story, the background story, and just your own self discovery, the kid across the hall. I mean, you you make a lot of sense. So folks, the the link is in the show notes, but I'd love for you to take us home, which any words, the final words of advice to our audience.

Reid Saaris [00:29:00]:

The only other thing I'd add by way of closing and the gratitude would be that, folks are more than welcome to, check out our campaign. It's, at www.reedreid for the number for wahschools.com, read for wahschools.com, and looking forward to, pushing the boundaries of what's possible to bring equity and excellence to the highest levels of a state's system of public education and ensure that the promise of public education is fully accessible and something that, all students have the opportunity to realize. So thanks again for the time and look forward to keeping in touch.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins [00:29:42]:

Listen. The pleasure is all mine. I thank you so much for your time. Well, once again, I have reached Harris on the author of the book coming out tomorrow, the kid across the hall. Reed, thank you so much for your time.

Reid Saaris [00:29:55]:

Thanks, Sheldon. This was awesome.

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