Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

... Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, where you can catch the weekly livestream, The Art of Advocacy. Each week we'll have a special guest, and we'll discuss various topics around equity and advocacy work.

               What's up, Advocates. Dr. Eakins is here. I'm just getting back from sunny San Diego. I had the opportunity participating in a Den Talk at the Deeper Learning Conference 2022. I had an awesome time. An awesome time. I met some great educators, advocates out there. Shout out to Dr. Michelle Pledger. It was a great, great time, great experience.

               This past Saturday, I did a keynote with the Innovation Center for Education Preparation Region 20. The topic was When Advocacy Meets Privilege. As always, if you are looking for keynote presentation training, any of those types of things, you can always reach out to me, LeadingEquityCenter.com/Consulting. I'd love to work with you.

               For today's episode I brought on a good friend of mine, Dee Lanier. Dee Lanier is a lifelong educator who is extremely passionate about issues of equity and inquiry-based learning. Dee is an award-winning presenter, TedX speaker, Google-certified trainer, Google innovator, and Google-certified coach. Dee is also the creator of the Design Thinking Educational Activities, Solve in Time, and MakerKitchen.

               I'm really proud of this brother, because he's the author of Demarginalizing Design: Elevating Equity for Real Word Problem Solving. On this episode, we talk about design starts with equity, equity with empathy, cultural appropriation, and marginalization.

               Welcome to the Leading Equity podcast. My name is Dr. Sheldon L. Eakins, and for over a decade I've helped educators become better advocates for their students. What is an advocate? An advocate is someone who recognizes that we don't live in a just society. Advocates aren't comfortable with the status quo, and are willing to speak up on behalf of others. No matter where you are in your journey towards ensuring all of your students are equipped with the resources they need to thrive, I'm here to help you build your knowledge and confidence to ensure equity at your school.

               Welcome Advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. I had to say that really excited, because I have [inaudible 00:02:46], and I got my boy on today. Dee Lanier is here. He is the-

Dee Lanier:

In the house.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Yes. Yes. Dee is the author of Demarginalizing Design: Elevating Equity for Real Word Problem Solving. Without further ado, Dee thank you so much for joining us today.

Dee Lanier:

Appreciate you, man. Appreciate you. Even you saying that I'm the author of the book makes me... just gives a little bit of jitters. I'm like, "Man, this is a long time coming, for real."

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Long time coming. I'm glad. Folks, listen, I met Dee a few years ago, and he is a hip hop connoisseur. That's one of the reasons why we connected. We had arguments, and we've had these debates over hip hop. Listen, just being able to see your thoughts on paper, I can only imagine that this is going to be such an awesome book of work because I know your passion. When you're into something, you are into something. So, I know you put your heart and soul into this.

Dee Lanier:

No lies. Appreciate that, man. Appreciate that, for real.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

For folks that don't know anything about you, if this is their first time, which I would be very surprised if they have never heard of Dee Lanier before, but for those who may not be as familiar share a little bit about yourself and what you do.

Dee Lanier:

So, so hard to do, give your own little introduction. This is weird, but because I used to be a business teacher, I was a business teacher for six and a half years, and I found some stuff that was not so hot about myself online. I was like, "Wait a minute, where'd that come from?" Then I started having my students Google themselves, and then we took control of our own online profiles from that day forward. I literally tell people all the time, "Google me. See some of the things I'm passionate about."

               I created a design thinking process called Solve in Time. I'm a speaker. I'm a workshop facilitator. I love, love, love being Zoomed into classrooms, so shout out to any of the classroom teachers out there. You think I'm playing, holler at me and I will Zoom to your room and say what's up to your students, and learn from them and with them. Those are the things I'm most passionate about. California native. Live in the Carolinas. I always got to throw that out there because when you're west coast, you're throwing up the W all the time.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

All day. All day.

Dee Lanier:

No matter where you're at.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I watched the Super Bowl the other day, or I at least watched Halftime of the Super Bowl. I didn't catch the game.

Dee Lanier:

The real show.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I saw the real show, and I saw Snoop and them. I did think about you, man, because [crosstalk 00:05:34]-

Dee Lanier:

I appreciate it. That's what I'm talking about, when I get thought of, though I no longer live in LA, because my heart's there for sure. Yeah, Snoop had the Crip Walk on national television. Of course, he had to do that. I was like, "Seriously, Snoop?"

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

He had on the bandana [crosstalk 00:05:54].

Dee Lanier:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was paisley'd out. He was blue'd out. I was like, "This dude." But it also made me think, I'm going to have the next online Vezuz debate and say Dre is in a category of himself, the only one that... Please don't say Puffy versus Dre. That's not even a fair fight. They didn't even put in NWA. Cube could have jumped on the stage. That could have happened. You're talking generations.

               The only person that I would even put in the same category as Dre would be Quincy Jones.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah, but Quincy Jones is going to have a lot artists. He can't bring Michael Jackson on, but he's going to have a lot of artists that... Man, that's a good one, actually, now that I'm thinking about it.

Dee Lanier:

I'm just talking about a hit maker, right?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dee Lanier:

You heard Dre do that little riff? He put in a little bit of Pac, just enough to tease you a little bit. I was like, "Oh, is a hologram about to happen right now?" Just reminds you, his influence has been decade, after decade, after decade. A hit maker. 50 coming in upside down, looking like Spider Man, to Anderson Paak being on the drums. Just little subtle reminds, like "Yeah, them too. Yeah, I produced them too."

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I didn't know that Dre was involved with Anderson Paak like that. I learned that one. I knew about Mary J, and obviously Eminem, but there's a few that I was just like, "Oh shoot. Yeah, yeah, yeah that's Dre."

Dee Lanier:

A hit maker. In education, that's what I think about you, man. You be putting people on.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Listen, I-

Dee Lanier:

You be putting people on, I ain't going to lie.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I just try to learn. I just try to learn. I'm trying to learn as much as everyone else.

Dee Lanier:

The last time we had an interview, this is a shameless plug for the both of us, the last time we did an interview and you put out there my SolveInTime.com website, I was averaging 300 new visitors a day. I was like, "This is all the Doctor." There's Dr. Dre, and there's Dr. E.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Oh my God. Okay, I'll admit, people listen to the show. I might have a little audience. There might be a few people that listen every now then. I'm glad that things worked out with the page visits. Yeah, I was happy to plug you, man.

Dee Lanier:

I appreciate you.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Speaking of plugs, you have this new book coming out.

Dee Lanier:

Let's go. Let's go.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Let's chat. Let's chat about it, because I'm looking at the Table of Contents, and I've seen some really nice topics are coming up. I want to start with towards the beginning of this Table of Contents, I'm seeing why begin with equity? Design starts with equity, and I want to... We should probably back up a little bit because if I was to read the back cover, because I kind of want to lay the foundation as far as what we're talking about, obviously there's equity in the title of the book. If I was to read the back of it, how would you summarize the book?

Dee Lanier:

I'm actually going to flip it on you, literally. I would say if you looked at the front of the book, if you saw the front imagery... I'm going to give nothing but shout outs during this interview. Monica Martinez did my cover art, and man, she gave a couple of different options, but the one we went with it has so much symbolism, so many images, so many things happening that if you were to first see a black face, a dark skinned brown man, and you would see a dark skinned brown woman, you would see those two people and you would see what'd look like voices circulating the air. Then you would see all of these different symbols going on.

               Of course, you would see the title. Every time you would glance at it, you would maybe see something else, and something else. As you read through the book, maybe you look back at the imagery there and be like, "Wait a minute, I think I understand what this is communicating." I would hope that it would grab your attention and then it also be something that's full of layers that you could always go back to, and unpack, and recognize even more. The text that's going to be on the back will give somewhat of a summary of what you gave, a point or two, and that is why design should start with equity, because when anyone thinks or hears design thinking, unfortunately I think two wrong things come to mind.

               The first thing that comes to mind is, "Oh, a model." A particular model. They know a particular model, and then they say it with a definitive oracle "The", "The Design Thinking Process is", and I'm like, "Wait, hold up. If you can show me one design thinking process, I can show you 10 others." No jokes. We can Google it. Go ahead, Google it. Look up design thinking models, and you will recognize that there's a ton of them. A couple of them, and in particular in education, one of them has become extremely popular at Stanford D Schools.

               We get into this thinking that design thinking is a process, and that process is definitively this process. I'm like, "Hold up, scratch the record. That's not even true." Secondly, because people think the design thinking process is, and they're looking at the Stanford D school model, they then say, "Design thinking starts with-" and it's with a word that starts with an E. "It's Empathy." I'm like, "Hm, interesting. It's interesting that you would think that."

               Not to spoil too much that's in the book, or at least in the first couple of chapters, I make one comment that is my mic drop on that particular thing, and that is to say if you start with empathy, you may miss equity. If you start with equity, you'll get empathy every time.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Say that one more time.

Dee Lanier:

If you start with empathy, you may miss equity. If you start with equity, you'll get empathy every time.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Amen. Okay. Okay, we're having church now.

Dee Lanier:

We're in it. We're in it. Let's go.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I like that, because that's the truth though. I can be empathetic. I can learn that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I am going to be an equity-minded educator. I think that's a powerful statement. That should have been... You know what, I'm going to meme that, or GIF it, or something. You're right. I never thought about it that way. I see equity put in as a side dish so much, and unfortunately it should be embedded.

               Like you said, once you have an equity mindset, that's going to open so many other doors and it's just going to put you in a different place, but you have to have that starter.

Dee Lanier:

Yep, without a single doubt. That's why it's also called Demarginalizing Design, which is to say, okay more spoilers... I don't people like "Man, I don't have to read it."

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

"I don't need the book no more."

Dee Lanier:

"I don't need the book." Yeah, but lots of spoilers. Even that model, or a model of design thinking, that has been out there that a lot of people then embrace and call "the model", I'm like, "Where did that come from?" How was design thinking, first of all thinking like a designer, how was that colonized in such a way that the credit is given to a particular institution or particular individual? That's what we tend to do. We want to hero-make. We want to say, "This is the champion. This is the person who invented on their own. This is the person who developed blah-blah-blah," and we want to be able to trace that and to credit that.

               Oftentimes, unfortunately, it is at the expense of the work that's already been done, especially of Black and Indigenous people. It's like there are cultural traditions, and there's evidence of this having existed for years. But you want to give credit to somebody who put it on paper, or put it out there in the public in this way. In many ways, it's just like a competition for who can get credit for something by marketing it. That has also been done with design thinking.

               When you think about the people that are in the margins, because thinking about problems that have to be solved, and then coming up with incredibly intuitive ways to solve those problems... If you think about people who live in lands that they were in desert lands, but they were adjacent to rivers, they figured out how to irrigate the land from the water that was coming from the river. They problem solved. They did that. Then others may visit that land, and in some cases unfortunately, "conquer" those people on those lands, and then take credit for the things that they did agriculturally and say, "Look what we were able to do."

               Fool, you just got here. You showed up. You learned some stuff, and then you put your name on it. So, demarginalizing design is to make sure that we're giving credit to the collective, and that includes the past, and not just the present.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Would that be in line with what cultural appropriation is? I'm curious now.

Dee Lanier:

If you were to put a word to it, for sure. Absolutely.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

That makes sense, because unfortunately we see a lot of things that are bits and pieces taken, and we'll call it something totally different than what it originally was called, or what it was originally for.

Dee Lanier:

Yep. Yep. Right now, I'm reading through Mindset by Carole Dweck, mainly because I know all of the critiques of it. I thought, "I need to go the original source. I need to read what she says." I actually don't find a lot of what she says as offensive. I think ways that we've used it is offensive. Here's another thing, we look at what she said and we're like, "Oh, Carol Dweck. Mindset. Mindset. Growth mindset. Growth mindset." I'm like, huh she borrowed that whole concept from Maslow and Self-Actualization.

               We were like, oh no, you want to give credit to where you got that from. So, actually we should be championing Maslow, right? Wrong. Because Maslow, and all of his lots around self-actualization, not only did he straight appropriate them from the Black Feet tribe-

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Really?

Dee Lanier:

[crosstalk 00:17:18].

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Educate.

Dee Lanier:

... do that. There's some homework. Actually, in the book I do lots and lots of just statement and then pause, and say "Do your own research." Because you could argue with me, but if I give you something just to ponder, and if I give you enough curiosity to search on your own, then hopefully we can have a healthy discussion after you come back with the same formation of facts that I've been working with.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

This is definitely cultural appropriation. I think we can agree to this. I haven't done the research, and I definitely want to find an article, especially with the Black Feet tribe and self-actualization, but I'm glad that you're bringing this out because unfortunately there are a lot of folks that get credit for things that they borrow and they've stolen sometimes, and the credit is not given to them. So, thank you. [crosstalk 00:18:14].

Dee Lanier:

Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. Let's bring it back home in thinking about schools, thinking about education in particular. I broadly refer to educators on purpose. Maybe I'm in denial. I still refer to myself as an educator, though I've been out of the classroom for four years now. That's because I still work in the field of education. That's like trying to say that I'm not from Cali. I'm just going to fight you. Yes, I am.

               But speaking to educators broadly, we oftentimes think of design thinking as a process that can be utilized to solve real world problems within a context. Again, we just throw all of the extra, and all of the present in all the things that we know today at it, and we're like, "Okay, first of all, you got to have a sponsorship by BASF because you need to have a million Post It notes. You also better get the markers out. You better have this. You better have that. These are the exercises we've got to do. We do all of this sort of stuff. Then we do it all in isolation, and then we say 'These are the ways in which we are going to solve these problems for them'."

               I'm like, wait. Everything is backwards and everything is messed all up, starting with the people that are present. The people who are most proximate to the pain or whatever problem you're trying to solve are the people that are most qualified to solve them. We shouldn't be "solving problems" for them. We need to be solving problems with them.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Wow.

Dee Lanier:

We need to be learning in community and solving problems with them. If there's anything taken away from this book, I hope that that is hammered home. Of course, I try and break down some things, and I bring in a lot of my own experiences. It's part memoir. The design of the book is intentional, asking tons of questions. The Table of Contents is full of tons of questions, giving credit to tons of reviewers, including yourself, [inaudible 00:20:21] jumping up in there.

               Then also, having large margins on purpose to give the reader room to fight me in the margins if they want to. "I disagree." Write it big so that maybe if you look back at it later, you'll say "I understand why I disagreed with that." Let's have some critical conversation within the margins. Let's take it online. Huddle up with the community as you read through this work, and dissect some things and figure out if certain things are true, what things that you can implement. Most importantly, who are the people that you need to be bringing into the room and to the conversation with you, within your context.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I had the pleasure, and I appreciate you reaching out to look at chapter six of your book-

Dee Lanier:

No, I appreciate it. Let's make sure. The weight of appreciation, let that be known. That is on me. I appreciate it. I thought if there's one person I want looking at this chapter...

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Okay. Okay, all right, so it's mutual. The feeling is mutual.

Dee Lanier:

All right.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

When you emailed me the other day, you emailed me right at a perfect time. I was like, "Oh yeah, now is the time," because we had talked about this for almost a year. I was like, "I'm going to get to it. I'm going to get to it. I'm going to get to it," and you just happened to hit me right at the right time. First of all, I thoroughly enjoyed reading that chapter. I thought you brought in... You started off by talking about a show, and how it was compared to racism.

               I don't know if you want to share a little bit about that, for the folks who [crosstalk 00:22:01]-

Dee Lanier:

Yeah, sure.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Okay.

Dee Lanier:

If anybody has seen Lovecraft Country, it's an HBO special, like when my wife and I watched it, I was shook. I was really shook. It's kind of like if you watched any sort of work that also have a social commentary behind it. You know that there's something below the surface, if you watch Us, or Get Out. If you see any of those sort of things, and you're like, "Okay, I see what this thing is saying," and you start comparing to what you know in your own life and your own experience, and it gets scarier.

               Lovecraft Country did that for me. It was a little out there. I'm not really a horror guy. But because I could recognize the constant double entendre was happening, it shook me. Because this particular chapter was on race and racism, I just used that as an intro to try and help the reader recognize I'm going to use some imagery that feels horrific and graphic because that is what racism is. It's horrific, and it's been graphic.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

You started the chapter, the first sentence is something around, "I'm going to keep it real with y'all for a few pages. I'm just going to let y'all know it's about to go down," and you didn't disappoint as I read that chapter. I think that's important. Again, I say this a lot, but having these conversations are not always easy, especially for those who do not have the same lived experiences. Sometimes it can be a challenge, and it can make us uncomfortable.

               I'd just like to just say "Hey listen, if we don't talk about it, if we just avoid and pretend like it's not there, that is not going to eradicate racism." I think we need to have these conversations.

Dee Lanier:

No doubt. No doubt. Yeah, it's scary. This was a hard chapter for me to write. It was extremely hard. There was also intention in making it the second to last chapter. It's like if you've been with us this far, if you made it this far, then hopefully you've sort of been fortified to handle the intensity of this particular chapter. It's a short chapter, but it's intentionally dense as well to allow the reader room to unpack some of the concepts over time, for sure.

               Again, that's what the larger margins are for, for you to go in, do your own research, figure out some stuff, have some conversations, talk to your community, bring in the diversity, find out how these problems are relevant within your context, and then aim to solve them.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Let me ask you this question then, as I'm thinking about it, how would you recommend someone to digest this book? Is this something that you would recommend as a self awareness type of book? Or is this more of "I am a school leader and I am looking to revamp or revisit the way our school is structured"? How would I take this [crosstalk 00:25:19].

Dee Lanier:

Yeah. I appreciate you asking how would I recommend, because that's all it is, knowing that there are people who are... Folks have agency. They're going to do as they desire. I know that there are plenty of people who will read this, as well as any other book that they read individually. That being said, I hope to push the reader so frequently that they recognize "I'm lost without others to digest and unpack this with," especially if you are a white person reading this book. There are some places that you may feel uncomfortable or confused, maybe even downright frustrated.

               But you have a commitment to education, and especially if you teach in a public school setting you recognize that in most districts, so-called "urban" districts, 80% or more of the student population is black and brown. Therein lies a challenge that exists for you. If you are a white educator, and you've picked up either of Christopher [Enden 00:26:38]'s books, you recognize yeah, this is a challenge that you face every day, and you are trying to be equipped to be more responsive to the needs of those students that are within your educational setting.

               This book is one in which I am begging that the educator bring those representatives that can speak to the pain in which I am highlighting within my book into their conversations.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I like that.

Dee Lanier:

So it's not just "We're just going to get our whole fourth grade team, or our whole ELA team, and we're all going to read it," how do we bring the people who know what is being spoken about best within the midst and say "Is this true? Help me understand." That deeper learning has to happen through community. It's going to have to happen from folks learning from the real experts, and in most cases that includes the students.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Most cases, I would say our students are definitely dealing with a lot of these things at their level.

Dee Lanier:

The only reason why I said "most" and not "all" is because there are instances in which administrators having a staff team. I've worked in a few different schools, with the exception of my first school which was predominately black staff, in the other couple of settings I worked at I was a minority within a mostly white staff team. My perspective is very unique and different, and I felt marginalized on a regular basis. One of the things I bring up, I bring up an instance.

               Whew, chapter seven was really challenging. It took me forever to write that chapter because I stopped so many times, because I was just bawling. Its real tears hitting my keyboard, and having to stop and be like, "That's enough," and look at it later and be like, "That was five sentences." Recalling instances such as when Keith Lamont Scott was killed in Charlotte, and the body cam footage was being released, and the mayor had notified the schools and the businesses that were proximate to Uptown Charlotte, "Hey, there might be some protests happening. You might want to board up. You might want to-" whatever-whatever.

               When that video dropped, and of course there were protests. There's lots of things that went down. In the first day we got back, there was all these announcements to the staff on how we can help facilitate difficult conversations with students. I know you're going to sniff the problem with this [crosstalk 00:29:45]-

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

How to help the staff or the students?

Dee Lanier:

How to help the students. How to help the students. How to process questions that you should ask, ways in which you can respond to different questions. All of this. Then we have the conversation, or conversations start happening. I still remember it like it was yesterday, Mr. [Hartzell 00:30:12], good dude. He's standing at the front and he's talking to the fourth grade kids. I'm in the back of the room. I'm behind the students, and he's interacting with the kids, answering questions, asking how they felt, what things they were thinking and all that.

               Then he happened to look up and he saw my face from over the sea of the kids. He saw my face and he went, "Mr. Lanier, are you okay?" I whipped around and I just started bawling. I had to leave the room because nobody checked on me. No one said, "Wait a minute, here's a 43 year black man who was killed. We're going to make sure that the fourth graders are okay, but we're not going to make sure someone around the same age, who lives in this city, we're not going to make sure he's okay." That's what I'd like to speak to within this, and that is to say yeah, in most cases it's students, but also in many cases it's just staff if you are in leadership. It's the parents.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Yeah.

Dee Lanier:

It's the people who have been able... Over the years, they've accumulated the trauma from issue, after issue, after issue, socially as well as contextually just right within the classroom. Like "Hey, my voice seems to matter less than this parent's voice." If I act out, if I say some things in a certain kind of way, then I get labeled, and I get pushed to the side, I get called difficult, all these sort of things, and I'm afraid that you're going to punish my child because of the interaction that you have with me, and I'm just trying to advocate for my kid. We've got to listen to those voices as well.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

First of all, thank you for being vulnerable in sharing that experience. I remember when Michael Brown was killed and I was a principal. I was in Oregon at that time, and best believe, my staff... It felt like it was just me that could talk, that was really feeling it. I know we don't mean to do this, but sometimes we forget about our adults.

               We spend a lot of time wanting to make sure that our students are okay, but these last few conversations that I've had over the last few months regarding booked-ins, regarding all these "You can't say this, you can't say that," and it's like our teachers are like "How do I talk about Dr. King? How do I talk about-" we have a new federal law that's passed, Juneteenth, and we can't even talk about it. How do we explain that to my students what Juneteenth is, and they've never heard of it? I'm too afraid, or I'm not sure of how to present this to folks.

               These times are stressful for a lot of us as adults. I'm glad that you brought that up. I'm sure that's not the only time you've felt in those types of situations.

Dee Lanier:

Not close. Not close. Not close. Folks need to know, we are always battling ghosts. As people of color, we're always battling ghosts. If I get treated in such a way that I feel that I'm being minimized in the moment, it is not necessarily because of what that one person has said or done, but because of the culmination of all the things that have historically happened. I am thinking race has to be a factor.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

It does.

Dee Lanier:

Right?

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Have you read Stereotype Threat? Not Stereotype Threat. Whistling Vivaldi?

Dee Lanier:

Yes.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

That one right there-

Dee Lanier:

I was actually studying his stuff when I was in college, and didn't even know that it was Seminole work at the time.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

That book right there, again I didn't know that there was a term... I've lived a life sometimes where I didn't know there was actually a term or a phrase coined, and all this stuff. This has just been my experience. I had absolutely no idea that someone had researched this before. Someone else has experienced this too. For those listening, if you haven't read the book Whistling Vivaldi by Dr. Claude Steele, and if you've got a plug, if you can hook me up, I would love to have him on the show. Connect us or something, because I want to get him on the show.

Dee Lanier:

Yeah, that would be dope.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

That's a great book. It's such a great book, and it talks about stereotype threats, like you know there are certain stereotypes that are associated with your identity, and you don't want to perpetuate those stereotypes. So, you're very mindful. Sometimes, I'm thinking about I'm in a group and I'm very passionate. I'm not angry or anything, but I talk with my hands, and maybe my voice starts to raise a little bit, and people... I'm thinking, "How am I being perceived right now? Are people thinking that I'm upset or angry?" All those types of things that are associated with my identity.

               Sometimes, I hold my tongue. I've done that before. I just catch myself and I'm like, "Okay, okay maybe I just won't say it within this same type of passion." It's not that I'm upset, it's just I tend to talk with my hands.

Dee Lanier:

Guarded. Yeah, yeah. You got to stay guarded because of how those things come back to haunt us. Sometimes they'll comment in a conversation, and you recognize, "Oh wait a minute, you were taking inventory of my mannerisms, and then you brought it back to me, and then you weaponized how I may have been feeling in the moment against me." This is all repeat for us. Then also maybe one other challenging perspective, if you will, it's not a real big challenge, but interesting I'll say it that way, is to consider if you read Claude Steele, read some of the work from his brother, Shelby Steele, and if you want to reinforce the idea that black people are not a monolith, read their conflicting opinions on certain things.

               Brothers, I want to say they're twins. Nonetheless, that's why it's important to not have just one black friend. To have many, and to listen to the diversity of experiences that surround you, because when we get together we share our stories, and we may share them differently than others. Expect that we would. Oftentimes, it's we huddle in order to heal. We try and give each other ways in which how to handle our stress. I think that we live as foreigners even when we are within the same context of many white people.

               There's a lot to be understood over time. I'm hopeful that my book at least just prompts people to take some time to breathe, to listen, to learn, to do that with others, to do some research in some areas in which they may not have even recognized they needed to. Stay at it.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Stay at it.

Dee Lanier:

Stay resilient.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I like that, stay at it, because this work is not always easy. Sometimes we want those instant results, want overnight results. We want to FedEx it, but you can't FedEx equity. I'm sorry. It's not a thing.

Dee Lanier:

Nope. Nope.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Stay at it.

Dee Lanier:

You cannot.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

If we've got some folks that want to get their hands on the book, where's the best place?

Dee Lanier:

It'll be on Amazon for sure, and I'm thinking... We'll see. We'll see by the time this comes out if this is reality, but I'm thinking of putting some limited edition on the Solve in Time website, just because that's a website that I have, and maybe package it with the Equity Edition of Solve in Time, and do some autographed copies. Something like that. They may be on Solve in Time.com as well, but definitely on Amazon. I chose to self-publish. I'm inspired by people like you saying, "You know what, I'm tired of fighting for a seat at the table. I'm about to build my own table."

               Not by myself, either. I'm going to call up the fam and see if we can build this joint.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Build your own hibachi, man. Yeah, take it a step further. I'm with you on that, man. You know how it is man, anything I can do to [crosstalk 00:39:18], you know I got you.

Dee Lanier:

Same thing.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Let's do this, let's do this. I definitely consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. What is one final word of advice you would like to provide to our listeners?

Dee Lanier:

Take your time. I don't mean that in a lazy way, and I don't mean that in a dismissive way. I don't mean that in an excusing way. I mean literally take the time that is necessary to learn, and to keep learning, to re-learn some things that may have been learned in the past in order to be absolutely better the next time. We all know that quote by Dr. Maya Angelou, "Once you know better, do better." That's my goal. I look forward to the comments. I say this hesitantly because I don't always believe it, but in all honesty I look forward to the corrections that come from others.

               Part of what has taken so much time for me to get this book out there, is so many things I want to just get right. I just wanted to get right. I just wanted to get right. I had a buddy who said, "Well, you've published a different product before. How did that go?" And I knew he was setting me up, because I knew what he was saying. He was saying, "You put it out there, and then people gave you a lot of feedback. Then you made another edition. Then you made another edition."

               I say that to others and for others, but I'm also saying that for myself, just take the time to keep learning what you don't know in order to show up even better the next time.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Man, yeah that's dope. All right, so Dee, if we've got some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach you online?

Dee Lanier:

The best way is definitely Twitter. It's probably the social media that I answer and respond. So, @DeeLanier. Just @ me and I'm sure to holler back. That's absolutely for sure. Again, not trying to brag, just trying to say, I've tried to make my public persona available. All the homies be like, "Man, where you been. I lost your number or something." I'm like, "First of all, I got the same phone number since I've always had. Second of all, if all you did was just Google Search me, there are ways that you can find out how to contact me."

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

Exactly.

Dee Lanier:

I hope they holler at you, and be like "Where's Dee's contact?"

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

I usually get at least one email. Yeah, that's... I'm sure, and I'll definitely point to you. Folks, I'll leave all the links in the show notes as well so you can have prime access to all the content that Dee offers, Solve in Time, and the new book, and everything like that. It'll all be there for you.

               Dee, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Dee Lanier:

Same, brother. Appreciate you, man.

Dr. Sheldon Eakins:

This episode was brought to you by the Leading Equity Center. For more podcast interviews and resources, head on over to LeadingEquityCenter.com.

 

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