Speaker 1:

Welcome advocates to another episode of The Leading Equity Podcast. A podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Now, I got a special guest with me, Dr. Byron McClure is here. He is an individual that I've wanted on my show for a very long time. For some reason, I could not find his contact information. I was able to hit him up on Twitter. He jumped on right away, responded and said, yeah, let's do this. So without further ado, Byron, thank you so much for joining us today.

Byron McClure:

Man. Thank you for having me. Thank you for tracking me down, especially on social media. I'm excited to be here and talk a number of different topics.

Speaker 1:

All right, let's do it. So I know who you are and I've had an opportunity to be with you on a panel regarding social-emotional learning, but I want folks to learn who you are as well. So could you share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do?

Byron McClure:

Absolutely. So Byron McClure. I'm many things. I think some of the more important titles that I have of father. Shout out to all of the fathers are there that just celebrated Father's Day. I have baby number three on the way. So I take pride in that, being a good father. A brother. A person who just cares deeply about the condition of people, especially black people in this nation. That work has led me to do some really cool things in the education space, being a school psychologist for many years. And then that work elevated to me, redesigning a high school in Southeast DC, which has been really cool.

               And so year two of that work just finished. In year one, I was the student experience redesign coach. Which is a really cool way to say that I prioritize kids having the best experience and making sure that their voices were front and center. And this past year I've been the assistant director of redesign. So just making sure that that students who look like me have access to quality education, has been some of the cool work I've been able to be part of. I'm many other things too, but we'll start there.

Speaker 1:

We'll start there. Okay. And that's fair. So one of the things that I learned from you from the first time we connected back, I don't know, months ago when we were on that panel was your love for social-emotional learning. And one of the things that I've really enjoyed listening to you as you responded to various questions was the cultural affirming piece. When we think about social-emotional learning, that's nice, but we also had to consider the demographics that we're serving. Could you start us off with providing us with some information on what does it mean to be culturally affirming? What are social-emotional learning support?

Byron McClure:

Yeah. And it can mean a number of different things. Some people use cultural responsiveness. Some people use culturally affirming. Some people use equity sensitive. Some people now are using transformative justice. Some people are using it under the guise of liberation. All of these things to me means that we are action sensor in our approach towards change. Improving the conditions that black students are in and moving towards, not just success, but a place where our students are thriving.

               And in that includes a representation and that's a big, big thing. Because so often black faces and those, Latin X and others aren't represented in literature and SEL curriculums. And so for me, culturally affirming practices put the culture of those who have been marginalized front and center. It means putting forward ideals and policies and practices that amplify the black experience, and it brings your culture front and center.

               It means making sure that your experience, what you've been through, your lived experience, is part of your school experience and in the curriculum and everything that you're learning. Making sure that we are affirming who you are by the things that you see, the things that you learn and the education that you receive so that you can then use that education to uplift your community. And that's culturally affirming to me. And without going too deep, people have lost track of the true purpose of SEL. And some people just don't know because if people knew, they will understand that social-emotional learning has been built upon practices that are culturally affirming from the work of a number of individuals, in particularly Dr. James Comer, back in the sixties. When he said, because someone asks a question, how can we improve the academic achievement of youth in certain communities. At that time, New Haven, Connecticut. And his rationale was we got to focus on improving the whole child. Right? Back in the sixties, this man, where it was racially segregated, it was tense. You have the Black Panther party on the same campus protesting. Right? Fighting for equity and justice and liberation. And at the same time in that world where the Black Panther party is colliding with social-emotional development. And this man is saying, this is how we're going to improve outcomes for black youth. It's through social-emotional development.

               And that's what I envision when I think of social-emotional learning, because it was birthed out of that place. And out of that work came to Tim Shriver's of the world. That's where a castle was burned. And then you get all of these facets and people pushing the work. You get a Daniel Goldman with his book that really took SEL main stream and emotional intelligence. But it's all around this work of improving outcomes for black youth.

               So in present day, if we're talking SEL, we're talking culturally affirming practices that improve outcomes for black youth. So that's why this work is so important. What people have to understand if you're talking to SEL, we're talking improving outcomes. We're talking about the whole child. We're talking about the social- emotional development that's uplifting your identities to improve outcomes.

Speaker 1:

I love that. Now I can already tell there's going to be a few folks, well here we go. I don't have a lot of black students in my, or brown students, in my classrooms. So this doesn't apply to me. I can already see there's some folks that are going to feel that way. Let's dig a little deeper when it comes to unpacking the idea of culturally affirming, because I love the way that you've been framing it. What are your thoughts on, does it matter how large of a population of students of color this is represented in my classroom? Does that make a difference to you? Or do we need to say, well, this is only applicable to places where there's predominantly students of color or black or brown students at schools?

Byron McClure:

I don't care if you're purple, green or blue. These are practices for everyone. And especially when you get those types of comments in predominantly white areas, or what have you, those students aren't going to stay there forever. Those students are going to go to college. They're going to go into careers. Especially when you look at the stats of our nation. We have to take into consideration, people are spreading out. People are moving. People are going to college. People bring those experiences with them. And we have to be able to teach all students these things, because at some point they're going to interact. At some point, they're going to be the ones making decisions. Right? They're going to be the ones crafting these policies and they have to be able to do so, whatever it is that they're doing with inner lens that is bringing people together, that's uniting people, that's promoting fairness across the board. I think that's important. And so I would say to those people, you're going to use these skills. And research has shown that whether you're in career, whether you're in college, that these skills can sustain you over time. And so it's important that people acquire these skills because they're going to use them at some point in their life.

Speaker 1:

Hm. They're going to use them at some point. All right, now, let's go back to something that you mentioned earlier and you talked about the whole child. And one of the things that I've been hearing a lot this past school year is regarding learning gaps. And a lot of administrators are, oh, COVID and school year and everything. And there's all these learning gaps, learning gaps, learning gaps. And I say, we're putting too much focus on the academic side of things and not considering what it's like to deal with a pandemic. And the whole child piece to me is so important. What are your thoughts on a lot of the rhetoric that's centered around learning gaps and how that relates to a social- emotional learning lens? Yeah.

Byron McClure:

Yeah. And I'm glad that you asked this question because learning loss is something that has been manufactured from these big testing companies and people who are looking to make a profit. If you have learning loss, by our product to decrease that learning loss.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Byron McClure:

But when you really break it down and look at it, especially folks in the black community and Latin X communities, we've been having learning loss before a pandemic even happened. I encourage everyone who's listening now, go check out this website. You can just Google ProPublica. And it's a really cool database that shows you achievement opportunity gaps, discipline, disproportionate discipline practices across the nation. You can drill down to dis-aggregate that data by your school. It's really awesome. But what you'll find out is that these stats have been here. Right? Students across the nation, when you look at discipline are three times nationally, as black students are more likely to be disciplined harshly than white students. Three times more likely. When you look at access to AP gifted honor classes, students of color don't have those same access to opportunities. And it'll give you and your state of what those numbers are. Some places it's as high as 11, 12 times, less likely to have access to AP honors or gifted classes compared to white students.

               When you look at just math and reading scores, man, where I work in DC, black students have historically, not just as a result of the pandemic, but historically three, four grade levels behind majority students. So when people talk about learning loss, our community has been at a learning loss for years. And there hasn't been this outcry, this outpour. So what are we going to do about it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. What can we do?

Byron McClure:

We have to be able, again, research because I'm real big on research and data. And back to Dr. James Comer, if you want to improve academic achievement, we have to get at the core and improve all of these things. Which is why he said the whole child. We have to prove the psycho-social development, the emotional development. Meeting their basic needs so that they can then attune to the academics and in a very succinct way. Look, if you are concerned about what you're going to eat, if you concerned about stress and all these other things of the world, you aren't going to be concerned about math. I'm not buying that. And that's just the fact.

               In fact, there'll be a really big study coming out soon and I'll share it with you when it's released, I had an opportunity to do some consulting with. But this is going to show that during the pandemic and after the pandemic, stress has skyrocketed. Anxiety has skyrocketed. Rates of depression and suicidality has skyrocketed as a result of the pandemic and even more so for certain communities before the pandemic. And when you factor in all of these things, how is anybody going to be able to come in day one focused on algebra? Get your algebra out of my face.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Byron McClure:

It doesn't matter. So we have to prioritize meeting the basic needs of people first to ensure that they're ready to learn and ready to access those things.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for saying that. And the thing about it is like you said, I have to go to school, but for a lot of our kids that come, because they have to go to school, that doesn't necessarily mean that school is a priority for them. Survival right now for a lot of families is the main goal is. Is a priority. And so when you throw out algebra or math or whatever it is, right, and say, okay, day one, this is what we're doing. We're doing all these tests. Then again, we're not considering the human side of our kids.

               One of the things I liked when you started that conversation was your thoughts were a lot of this is propaganda. This is means to sell products. Oh, you need to buy my tests or you need to do this, or you need to do that. And I think that's something that we have to consider is why do we have so much emphasis placed on state testing? Why do we have so much emphasis placed on college entrance exams? Does that really determine a student's ability to survive or thrive in a higher educational system? Or are we really putting a lot more emphasis on the product as opposed to the actual student itself?

Byron McClure:

Yeah, man. And I think that's important for people, for educators to consider, the weight that we're putting on these metrics and outcomes. And who is that benefiting? Who is that harming? And what is that information even telling us. And at the end of the day, as we redesigned these schools, we adopted this human sensor, a design approach where we put people at the core, at the center of decisions that we're making. Man, what happens when you care deeply and authentically? And you're coming from a place of empathy building with people? Man, magic can happen. And I think that's the approach that we have to come from. And then all those other things, it will come, but we have to prioritize people first.

Speaker 1:

Like it. Okay. All right. So let's shift gears because I probably get an email at least once a week, maybe even twice a week regarding critical race theory. I get an email at least once a week about it. And I want to know from a school psychologist standpoint, how does critical race theory or what are your thoughts? Let me just do this. Let me throw this out. What are your thoughts on critical race theory from a school psychologist standpoint or just as a personal standpoint in general?

Byron McClure:

Yeah. And I'll speak personally. I know this is a sensitive topic, but most people have no idea what CRT is. We talked a little bit earlier. I have a twin. Most people call me Brian. I've been called Brian my whole life. And my twin is brilliant. He is a historian by training. Went to Hampton, then North Carolina Central then got his doctorate all in history. He went to University of Memphis. And not until he got to graduate school and a little bit at Hampton, did he, this man with a doctorate degree in history, even get a good understanding of CRT. And so your average teacher, isn't just in a kindergarten classroom teaching CRT. And I have a doctorate degree as well. And I had to check with my twin, yeah, let's talk about CRT so I can understand what this is. And I have a doctorate in psychology and understanding people.

               And my understanding of CRT isn't at that level. And I've worked in education for 10 years. I've never stepped foot inside of a classroom and heard or saw a teacher teaching CRT. That's just not something that's that's happening. But what I fear is happening is that CRT has been created and manufactured to be the boogeyman of sorts, to scare people. Not to promote equity and positive outcomes for students who historically have been marginalized. And I fear that policies and practices and reports are going to be drafted that are going to prohibit the teaching and promoting of practices that will promote equitable outcomes. Under the premises, it's all ploy. And I think the danger in that is it won't allow us to unite. It won't allow us to move forward and they'll begin to lump everything under CRT things that they don't want to happen. Oh, that's just CRT.

               And what's happening because people don't have an understanding of what it is, they're just going to say we're scared of it. We don't want it. So we're going to back away from it. It's dangerous grounds. It's very dangerous. And so I think it's going to take people to really have a strong understanding. And to do the real work, to understand what these things are and what we're asking and what we're demanding in certain situations is just equity. Favorable outcomes for those who historically have been marginalized. But in a nutshell, man, this is a topic that people don't understand. And unless you have a law degree or a higher level of graduate degree, CRT isn't happening your average elementary, middle or high school.

Speaker 1:

So, okay. I'm going to push back a little bit. Do we think that there is a lack of understanding or do we think there is a certain level of understanding to where I want to uphold white supremacy and suppress voices of?:ike, oh, don't talk about this. Don't talk about that because this is going to impede or could potentially impede on my power that I'm holding because if I'm a legislator and the idea of culture... Not culture. I keep wanting to call it culture-

Byron McClure:

  1. That's the perfect illustration right there. Right? Whether you're a legislator, policymaker, some guy down in Florida making decisions, passing bills. Right? What happens is you just say the acronym CRT. Right? And people in the education space, they'll think culturally responsive teaching.

Speaker 1:

... Yeah.

Byron McClure:

Right? We're educators, we think that, but now you just put it out there and this fearful, this big, bad thing, critical race theory. But we're going to call it CRT. It might confuse people and have people to have pause about what they're putting out. Right? And then happens is, is this confusion. Well, let's make a bill to where we can't teach CRT and now we can't even have a culturally responsive teaching because we don't know the differences between the two.

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Byron McClure:

So let's just ban everything underneath the umbrella of all things CRT. It's dangerous, And I think, and this is Byron McClure talking. I think that politicians are playing a dangerous game between being naive versus being very strategic and crafty in their development around these policies. They know what they're doing. And this is why there's there's power in the pen. There is absolute power in the pen and policies. Whereas I will say it will take people who are equally knowledgeable around policies to fight back and combat whether it's good intentions, whether it's through sheer ignorance. Whatever it is, these policies are being passed and bills are being passed.

               And so there needs to be people who are knowledgeable to say, this is what's really happening. To have educators speaking out saying, no, this is what's going on because ultimately it's only going to create more division inside of our schools and we don't need that. We need to be bringing people together. We need to be as part of our design thinking. We need co-creators in this work. We need co-designers so that we can build systems that are equitable and fair for everyone. And we can't do that. We can't win collectively if we're doing that in opposition with one another.

Speaker 1:

Yes. So here's the thing. When we go back in history and we think about our founding fathers, what we call the United States. All those documents, Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, that stuff, those were very intelligent men that wrote those documents. And they had frames that they could kind of build off of and put these things together. So what we have today based off of what our Constitution and all of these amendments and everything, these things are strategic. So when we think about systemic, how do we oppress? How do we create a structure that is whether we are explicitly utilizing this language or not, but it is set up and structured in a way to keep folks down. That's why I say, even in 2021, if these laws are being passed and we're going to say, well, people are well-intentioned.

               I do lean towards the side, no, folks know what they're doing. They're in positions of power. They are creating these laws because they feel like their power is jeopardized. I saw what happened in January. Was it January 6th? Whatever day that was right.

Byron McClure:

January 6th. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

When they stormed the Capital Building. You tell me that as a result, a few months later, we get laws passed that say, let's ban critical race theory. That's not a coincidence. Are you telling me, you didn't know? I lean towards... I'm more on, there is systems that are being... This other strategic man. These folks aren't just waking up one day, let's pass the law. These folks know what they're doing. And I think it's very important.

               And I actually think is ironic rather that we have a law that says, Juneteenth is going to be a federal holiday these days yet we still are... So how am I supposed to tell a student why Juneteenth is a federal holiday because I can't talk about race? Because again, where's that line? Critical race theory, cultural responsive teaching. Where's that line? And to me these things are all intentional.

Byron McClure:

Yeah. And with our redesign work, we're in the business of redesigning a high school. And one of our very first sessions and intros to this redesign work is what are we designing? And why do we need to redesign? And one of my absolute favorite moments is in order to design systems that are equitable, we have to redesign and disrupt inequitable systems. And you have to ask yourself if we're going to redesign something or disrupt something that is inequitable, why does it need to be destructed in the first place? And if those systems are perpetuating certain outcomes that I talked about earlier, as far as the achievement gaps, as far as disproportionality, suspensions, disproportionality. Hf those outcomes are like clockwork. It's happening perpetually. Were these systems designed to get certain outcomes? And if that's the case, if you agree with that, you might not agree with it. But if you do, then you also have to admit that we have to disrupt those inequitable systems. You just have to. And then you must supplant that and design something that is equitable. And to do that, you have to notice and reflect on these systems, on historical structures that are creating these very outcomes that we're getting.

               As an example, because this is some people might say, I sound like a conspiracy theorist. But to make this practical. Right? If I believe... I care as a psychologist, I care about disproportionality suspensions, the over-representation of black and brown youth, especially those in special education who are over identified as special education and removed from school through in school suspensions and expulsions. Right? So if I believe that certain things were set up for black youth to perpetually be three times disciplined than their white counterparts, then I have to ask why.

               And then I have to look at the policies that are leading to these disproportionate outcomes. And I might look and say, hey, there's this thing that's called zero tolerance, which a lot of districts and schools have adopted. And zero tolerance policies cite that if you do A, it's an automatic suspension. if you do B it's an automatic expulsion. Who are these zero tolerance policies that are in the code of conduct and in the student handbooks? Who are these policies benefiting and who are they harming?

               We have to notice and reflect on those things. Because if you don't, you're only going to continue perpetuating those same systems of harm. So we have to disrupt those systems. We have to abolish them and get rid of them. Let's get rid of zero tolerance. Right? Because it's only harming certain groups of students. And you can do that with every issue that you care about, whether it's access to AP classes, honor classes. Whether it's over-representation, under-representation. Whether it's curriculum pedagogy. Whatever it is, you have to notice and reflect on those systems that have been created that might be perpetuating certain outcomes for students.

               And then once you notice, you have to reflect on your own practices as an educator. What are you doing? Are you adding to the system? Are you doing things to actually advocate for change? To bring about the positive things that our students need. You got to ask yourself those questions, and then after you do those things, now you have to lead with empathy, man. You have to. You have to be able to say, what is it that our students need? What is the community asking for? And our work after we notice, after we reflected on those systems, we had to build with the community. Because if I design something and create something, that's going to be with Byron McClure wants. And it might not be what the staff needs, what the students need, what the community needs, what the parents. So we have to ask. Right? And that's where you seed power. You're giving up. You're disrupting those imbalances of power. We're coming to the table. And then you're co-designing, you're co-creating together. What happens, man? You get buy-in. You empower people to have ownership over it.

               And once you have that ownership, it's like, we're in this together. And so now I care about the outcome. Right? And then you're constantly iterating. You're coming up with ideas. You're tweaking, getting you're testing things out through pilots. And you're working towards solutions that are people sensor, and that's how change happens.

Speaker 1:

Byron, it's been a pleasure. I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I consider you as providing a voice in leading equity. What is one final word of advice that you can provide to our listeners?

Byron McClure:

Yeah. One final piece of advice is change doesn't have to be or disruption doesn't have to be this thing where you're disrupting oppressive systems and completely changing the face of education. Change can start with yourself. So asking what is it that I can do? What's within my locus of control. And it might be, I'm going to speak up at the next meeting. It might be, I need to change certain habits that I have. It might be, I'm going to make a decision today to do something different. I'm going to make a decision to go for that job. I'm going to make a choice. I am going to start with myself. I'm going to notice and reflect. Whatever it is, start with yourself. Identify something that you care deeply about. Whatever issue it is, land on that. And then work relentlessly, nonstop to bring in about better conditions for yourself, for your students and the communities that you work with. And be relentless in your pursuit. And don't stop until you get the outcome that you want.

Speaker 1:

There you go. Byron, if we have some folks that want to connect with you, what's the best way to reach out to you online?

Byron McClure:

Yeah, definitely do what you did. Hit me up on social media at Twitter. My Twitter is @schoolpsychlife. Also, I have a website where I provide equity resources, social-emotional learning and that's lessonsforSELcom. That's lessonsforSEL.com and also @lessonsforSEL across all social media platforms.

Speaker 1:

Nice. It has truly been a pleasure. Thank you again for your time.

Byron McClure:

Thank you.

 

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