Speaker 1:

Welcome advocates to another episode of the Leading Equity podcast, a podcast that focuses on supporting educators with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their schools. Today, Shelby Kretz is here with us of the Little Justice Leaders. So without further ado, Shelby, thank you so much for joining us.

Shelby Kretz:

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation.

Speaker 1:

Let's do it. Before we get started though, because we're going to talk about social justice education, one of my favorite topics in the world, share a little bit about yourself and what you currently do.

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Shelby Kretz. I am the creator of Little Justice Leaders, which is a subscription box program that provides curriculum and materials for parents and teachers or educators of K through sixth grade students to learn about different social justice topics. So every month they'll get a different box with all the resources they need broken down in a kid friendly way to talk to little ones about complex social justice issues. In addition, I'm also a PhD candidate at UCLA in the Graduate School of Education working on my PhD in urban education under Dr. Pedro Noguera.

Speaker 1:

Oh, my man. Okay.

Shelby Kretz:

Yep.

Speaker 1:

Congrats on that.

Shelby Kretz:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Okay. All right, so I got a question. So what is in the box? I'm a parent. I got a fifth and what, a second grader.

Shelby Kretz:

Perfect.

Speaker 1:

If I subscribe, what do I get?

Shelby Kretz:

Yep. So like I said, every month is going to be a different theme. So every single box is going to include a book that covers the topic in a kid friendly way, a hands-on activity that they can do some kind of arts or craft activity where they can really start to integrate what they're learning, a set of information cards for the adults, because we know that the adults are learning this right along with the young people. So to make sure that they have all the important background knowledge they're going to need to be able to have meaningful conversations about the topic.

               It's going to have at least one piece of activist art, so that might be a poster, a sticker, a pin, created by an activist representing activism or the topic in some way. It's going to have a whole info card that's going to walk you through exactly how to go through this topic with things like conversation starters, tips for the adults, book recommendations, and all of that fun stuff. And then sometimes some fun extras, but that's kind of the basics of what you can expect. And we also spotlight at least one nonprofit or organization every month that we donate a portion of the proceeds to support that is related to the theme of the month.

Speaker 1:

Yo, that's dope.

Shelby Kretz:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Okay. I've got one more question then we're going to talk about our topic.

Shelby Kretz:

All right.

Speaker 1:

How did you get into the ... Like this is awesome, how come I don't know about this and how did you get into this?

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah. So why you don't know about it is probably because we are still a very small business, so hopefully we can start to spread the word more about the work. But how I got into it, I worked in education for a while before I came back into graduate school and around ... Especially around the 2016 election, I was spending a ton of time in schools talking to parents and educators and was just hearing from them about not knowing how to talk to little kids about important justice topics, especially that were coming on the news and kind of the common response was to just avoid it and not talk about it.

               So that was concerning to me because I was like our silence is speaking volumes for young people about what's important and they're getting their information from somewhere and we want to make sure that the narrative is accurate, right? There's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of confusion and fear. So I was really concerned about people just completely not talking about the topics. And so I was kind of thinking about that for a long time and that's where I started to realize okay, with my background in education and working on this PhD, which is rooted in social justice education, maybe I could do something to kind of help provide the resources to be able to bring this down to a kid-friendly way.

               And so that's kind of where the idea started. I realized it had to be a subscription that had to be monthly because there's just so many topics to cover. It could never happen in a one-time curriculum, so that was where the idea started and I just put it out there to see, and I got a really great response. And so I started in ... Our first box went out in August of 2018.

Speaker 1:

We will have to talk offline because I got some ideas I'd love to kind of get into that too.

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah, I would love to.

Speaker 1:

We'll have to keep in touch on that one.

Shelby Kretz:

Definitely.

Speaker 1:

All right, social justice education. Now I'm curious, we're recording this middle of February, it's February the 15th right now, Black History Month. We have seen ... I mean, we've gone through some nonsense all last year and now we're entering into February into 2021 and it doesn't seem like things are letting up these days.

Shelby Kretz:

Not yet, no.

Speaker 1:

So what's on your mind? What are you most concerned about right now when it comes to social justice education?

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah, so I would say the thing I'm most concerned about with everything that's happened specifically, and particularly the pandemic and the way it's impacting teachers we know, teachers have a very difficult job right now and so do parents and caregivers at home with kids who may not be in school. And so my biggest concern, especially with educators, is that they see social justice education as kind of an extra. And right now we know a lot of those extras has been thrown out the door in favor of just focusing on the basics because we are in such a complicated and difficult situation for education.

               That worries me because, well, for one thing, I think it's really, really important that we have these conversations at vital ages, right? And so the younger that we can have them, the better, and if we're pushing that off until later, those young people aren't getting that important education. And then also is that I believe, and we Little Justice Leaders believe that social justice education should be part of everything that we're doing in education. So if we put that off as an extra or kind of a side added thing, then again, our silence is speaking volumes to young people that it's not part of the traditional curriculum in the education system.

Speaker 1:

Why do you think it's considered ... I get this too, right? In the work that I do, everybody's all, "You're giving us more work." Or, "We already have social emotional learning and we have this and we have that, and now you want us to add on ..." They're thinking, "We've got to add on social justice into our curriculum as well."

Shelby Kretz:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Why does it come across, like you said, it should be embedded with everything that we do. Why does it come across as if this is an add on piece or this is additional work that folks have to do?

Shelby Kretz:

I think that's probably rooted in the traditional curriculum, which of course, never included any kind of social justice. And in fact, very much steered away from anything that could be considered even remotely political. And so I think kind of that hesitation is like we didn't have to do this before, right? This wasn't part of it. I didn't have this when I was in school, and so it does feel like an extra burden, whereas when we want to think about it it's like we're rethinking how we teach. We're rethinking what curriculum looks like, what a math lesson can look like a science lesson, a history lesson, can look like from the lens of social justice. So for us, it's really like a reframe of how we think about the curriculum, but historically it just hasn't been part of it.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So you made me think about something. I had a friend that sent me a video on Instagram about The Bachelor and there's a girl on The Bachelor that was a participant, and she was at some party that was some slave party or something. I don't know all the details. It was weird. And the guy, I guess, was over it, he was kind of defending her. He was basically saying, "Well, this happened back in 2018 and now we're in 2020, '21, so it's different now." And the folks were like, "No, it was wrong in 2018. It's wrong today. It was always wrong."

               And one of the things I've said, especially during COVID when COVID first hit, I was like COVID didn't flip on a switch and just start equity issues just all of a sudden, just showed up. These issues have been around since our educational system was founded. However, people weren't listening. It didn't impact them. They didn't see it. It was just like we're telling you this is happening, we're telling you this is happening, but no one was listening until just recently. And I guess the next ... The question that I have is what more needs to happen in order for people to start coming on board and really start listening to what's what's really happening in this world?

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah, and that's a great question. I think that is the question. As we all saw in 2020, a lot of people had this kind of racial awakening and realization of racism for the first time, which I think is good and bad, right? I think that pushes us forward in a way that we haven't really seen at least in one incident in a really long time. On the flip side, I think it made a lot of people feel like, like what you said, this is new, right? That because they were just realizing it that it must mean this has just started. And so it's also kind of spewed even more ignorance and misunderstanding about racism and its effects.

               So in terms of how to move forward, I think for me, part of the solution is embedding it as part of our education system, right? Making sure that everyone has a basic understanding of issues that are clearly prevalent throughout our country, whether that's racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia. All of those issues need to be part of our education system.

               I think another big part of it is that especially all of these people who are having these new awakenings need to become ... Start asking what can I do to educate my own community, right? That's your friends, your family, your social media following, all of your entire sphere of influence. What are you doing still now in 2021 and next year and the next year and the next year to make sure that you're calling out racism, pointing it out when it's happening, and really putting your neck out to speak up? And that might be uncomfortable and getting used to that.

               And until we see people in mass being willing to do that, particularly white people in mass being willing to do that, we're going to continue to have a hard time because of ... Partly because of segregation in the U.S. and the fact that so many white folks almost never interact with people of color in their day-to-day lives. So if they're not being called out by other white folks, then they may never be called out at all.

Speaker 1:

Oh, touching on that, right? You said there's a lot of white folks that they have the privilege of not having to interact with people of color, and like you said, there's historical stand points behind that. A lot of those same white folks are in the classrooms as well, but they have black and brown kids within their classroom.

Shelby Kretz:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Speaker 1:

So there's a mismatch there, right? So within my own community that I live in, where I shop and buy my groceries, where I pick up my gas, oil change, all that, I have that privilege to choose who I interact with. I don't get that same privilege when I'm in the classroom.

Shelby Kretz:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Speaker 1:

I think there's a disconnect between reality and then the other reality, if you will.

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a huge problem in our schools. One, just like the diversity in the teaching force in general, but two, thinking about what biases does every teacher walk into their classroom holding and how does that impact the students that are in front of them? And so that is a massive issue that needs to be addressed, whether that's through professional development as a starting point, that's not going to be enough, but professional development, thinking about our teacher education programs. How are we preparing teachers? What requirements do they have to go through before we put them in a classroom where they again, walk in carrying all the biases that they may have developed over the past 25 years that have never been checked.

Speaker 1:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, and the thing about it, I think of it like this, but I do a lot of training with a full set or like 20 ... Like you said, 20 years deep into the classroom, ten years, 15, and they've been at the same school and not only are they watching their demographics, student demographics, change, but now they're like, "Oh my gosh, this world has changed, and the United States has changed, and we got some serious things to deal with. I need to fix what I have been doing." But like you said, but it's too much or I only got a couple more years left before I can retire, and should I really do this work? It's going to be too much. I guess my response to that is if you don't do it, who will?

Shelby Kretz:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Because the kids are still coming to see you, and if you knowingly are going to say, "You know what? I'm going to refuse to provide a culturally responsive classroom. I'm going to refuse to teach my kids about social justice because I'm on my way out. Or it is an additional thing or task that I have to do. I don't know a lot about this right now, which means that I'm going to have to Google, I'm going to have to Wikipedia, I'm going to have to research, I'm going to have to read books. I don't have time. I got my own kids to deal with." And you get all these excuses and things don't change.

Shelby Kretz:

Absolutely. I mean, that's a huge issue I would say, is getting teachers to take responsibility for picking this up and bringing it to their classroom. And I will say there are so many great teachers out there who are doing this and they're doing it so well and they're sharing their lessons and they're sharing their curriculum, and they're making it as easy as it can possibly be for other teachers to get it, but they have to be out there actively seeking it.

               So I mean, my challenge to any educator is I imagine the large majority of educators get into this work because you care about the kids, and if you do care about the kids, then you have to think about how this impacts them in an extremely significant way, more so than a lot of the other things that happen in schools, right? This is a fundamental issue of identity and belonging and privilege and oppression that we have to address.

               And so for any educators who are kind of on the fence, or not sure about putting in the work, I would strongly urge you to think about your students and if it's worth it to you to make sure that they're getting a caring and inclusive and loving education that values who they are, and also exposes them to people who are different from them because that's going to serve them throughout their life to have that at a young age. So it's a huge problem though, I think, because it feels like a lot to teachers, especially if they don't know about it. And they're scared of either having to do the work, but also like messing it up, right? and doing it wrong.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah, and that happens a lot, the idea of doing it wrong, the fear of ... The white fragility is a thing.

Shelby Kretz:

Right. It's real.

Speaker 1:

It's real, but I agree. I mean, I think there are some great teachers that are just ... They're not sure where to start, where to begin, and it can seem overwhelming, especially when you have grown up in ... You just haven't had these kind of experiences or you weren't aware that these things were happening.

Shelby Kretz:

Right.

Speaker 1:

And so now you're on it and you're like, I don't know where to begin, where to get started. I mean, I see those kinds of questions, those kinds of thoughts come up in my trainings all the time. So I would imagine on your end for Little Justice Leaders, are you getting folks that'll reach out to you and asking more questions like, "Listen, I'm so thankful for this box, but even with the instruction manual that this box comes with, I'm still a little lost." Are you getting some of those kinds of responses as well?

Shelby Kretz:

Surprisingly, I haven't gotten too many of those. We do try to break it down so that they really do have all the basics they need to work with from the box, and we provide a lot of free content on our Instagram as well. So I that's the first place I'll send people is like just check that out, there's a lot of free content, resources, videos, other ways to learn that way as well. But surprisingly, we haven't gotten too many. I do get a lot of people who are like, "I have to admit, I had never heard of this topic before." Right? For the theme. Or, "I have to admit, I knew absolutely nothing about this and I was terrified to teach it, but I used these steps and it went well so far."

               And most of the time when they do come to me, it's I want to learn more now so this is what I'm doing, right? I'm researching and this, because it gives them kind of a jumping off point where they're like ... For instance, we did a box on neurodiversity and I had quite a few people reach out and say they had never even heard that term before, but now that they had the box, they had some of the basics, they started doing their own research. So they really just needed that kind of as a jumping off point to gain the confidence to be able to go out and learn more on their own.

Speaker 1:

That's good. That's good to hear. And so I'm excited. What's the website? How can folks get in touch with ... Get themselves ordered up?

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah. So the website is littlejusticeleaders.com and the Instagram is just @littlejusticeleaders. So those are the best places to find us.

Speaker 1:

Nice. Shelby, I definitely consider you as providing a voice and leading equity. What is one final word of advice that you can give to our listeners?

Shelby Kretz:

Yeah. My final word of advice would be whether you're a caretaker, a parent, an aunt, or an uncle, an educator of any form, just start having these conversations. I know it can be scary. It can feel overwhelming. You do not have to have all of the answers before you start. You will make mistakes. There will be awkward moments. There will be questions that you don't know the answer to, but you just co-create those answers with the little ones, right? Be honest, tell them I don't know, let's look it up, let's try to learn more.

               And again, that's just modeling vulnerability and openness to learning and curiosity. So there's no harm in that, but just start having the conversations, push through the awkwardness, uncomfortableness, start to learn yourself because that's what's really going to start to get into the hearts and minds of the little ones and raise them in a way where this feels normal, right? Thinking about equity, thinking about inclusion, thinking about justice feels normal in all parts of their lives.

Speaker 1:

I love it. I love it. So again, one more time, if folks want to reach out and connect with you, what's the best way online?

Shelby Kretz:

Yep. It's going to be littlejusticeleaders.com. That's L-I-T-T-L-E, justice, J-U-S-T-I-C-E, leaders, L-E-A-D-E-RS.com, and @littlejusticeleaders on Instagram.

Speaker 1:

All right. Once again, Ms. Shelby, soon to be Dr. Shelby, is here with me again. Thank you so much for your time.

Shelby Kretz:

Thank you. I appreciate it.

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